my new sub is married,

Discussion in 'General BDSM discussions' started by Alaskan, Apr 23, 2011.

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  1. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    and its not to me...

    My first post here, hello all.

    She is married, and unhappy in it. I am engaged, and my baby knows all about my pet. Likes to watch. I like to show.

    Beyond that, I am fairly new to being a dom, I would describe the relationship I have with my baby as equal. I was previously married for 6 years, and that relationship I would say was more me in the sub, kept position.

    My pet has limitations on what and when she can do things, and I respect those boundaries. Pushing those boundaries, finding her limit, is entertaining. I suppose what I am more curious about is if this is common, where one of the parties is married, cheating. I don't have a 'moral' issue with it myself, just more curious.

    Any insight to this particular dynamic, where one party is cheating, would be appreciated.
     
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  2. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    I'd suggest that you shouldn't be playing with this sub. BDSM requires honesty; it's a fundamental principle, as I see it. Your sub is being extremely dishonest to her husband. If she's being dishonest with him, you can't trust her to be honest with you. And if you can't trust your sub, you really shouldn't be playing with her. Among other things, you can't trust her to not change her mind about what you're doing to her, and that could escalate into legal charges against you, since a lot of what doms do to subs is technically illegal.

    For example, let's say that her husband finds out and confronts her (maybe he sees bruises). She can't admit that she was engaging in consensual bdsm, so she fabricates a story about how you seduced her, tied her up and raped her. He insists that she call the police, and pretty soon you get a visit from Officer Not-So-Friendly. Think that's unlikely? I know of someone it happened it.

    Also, since she's involved with another man, you don't have complete control over her. You're sharing her. The few times that I played with subs who were involved with other guys, I always felt frustrated by the limits I had to work around. As a result, I didn't feel very powerful, and that wasn't satisfying to me.

    So my advice is break it off with her and find another sub to play with. Failing that, order her to tell her husband what she's doing.
     
  3. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    All good points Sebastian. I had considered the husband flipping out, trying to find me, but not catching a rape rap.

    Its a very good point, that there are things that I am unsure of in this woman. There are also particulars, such as not being able to mark her, that at this stage in my development of my dominant personality are good particulars. Its a good thing, for me, at this point, to have these limits. It is a good thing for me, that I can only interact with her in a limited fashion. It is also a good thing for baby.

    It is still very early on with this pet. She has done some things to show trust of me, which have not been reciprocated by me. She knows little about me, and I know for fact many things about her. Things that put me at advantage over her, should she decide to get stupid on me....

    In my head I want to extinguish the old sub I used to be. The weak pathetic kept man that I will never be again. Doing what was done to me in the past makes me feel control over it, even if it isn't any real tangible control, in my head, it helps.

    The idea of her having to have sex with him, really does not bother me in the least. It actually is a turn on for me, knowing when they have sex, degrading her for it...

    My pet is dom in all other aspects of her life, when she is sub to a master she says it is a relief. She has told me the man is a drunk, weak, and overly emotional. As far as trust goes, she knows what I demand. She has not given me a reason, so far, to doubt her. I will not hesitate to release her, but at this point, given her circumstances, she has been very pleasing.
     
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  4. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    It sounds to me that the real issue here is your needs and hang-ups. You feel like you really need to be dominant right now to help you get over your previous conditioning. I can understand that (I have something vaguely similar in my not-too-distant past). But I think it's leading you to hold onto a woman who is less than ideal for you simply because you need a woman to dom. But there are other kinky women out there. That's my advice.
     
  5. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    very true again Sebastian. I don't feel I need, just, deserve. There are fewer people here, so in general fewer kinky women, but perhaps I am letting my guard down, a bit too much.

    Baby keeps asking what the ultimate goal of this with this pet is. Its, not an easy question to answer.
     
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  6. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    I am going to be frank about this: Stay away from that woman. For both your own and her sake.

    She is married, period. Her husband is neither on board nor cool with it, period. You have no business playing with her, PERIOD. If she is unhappy in her marriage, it is her responsibiity to chose to work through that or leave him. You have NO place in that picture until their divorce or at the very least their separation becomes a reality.

    She is cheating on her husband, with you. You are cheating on her husband with her. You are giving her an excuse and an incentive to cheat on her husband. Apart from the fact that YOU are the bad guy right now, you are also violating the most basic principle of BDSM: consensuality. Consent does not just mean everyone playing is on board with it, it also means everyone who is emotionally involved with the players needs to be on board. Her husband is not. You are, with your actions, taking that choice away from him. You and her together are forcing him into a situation which he is neither prepared for nor willing to face. That is abuse and you both (plus your baby) are guilty of it by keeping that secret.

    The fact that both you and her are willing to be dishonest about your BDSM relationship is proof that you should not be having it. Both of you are willing to sacrifice trust and consent in order to satisfy your own egocentric desires. You are not in control of them, they are in control of you. Knowing that, can you trust yourself and each other that this is the last sacrifice you'll make in order get what you want? If you cannot control your desires, you should not be playing.

    Furthermore, both of you are placing yourself in a very very dangerous situation. Sebastian pointed out the potential legal ramifications, but frankly, that only the tip of the iceberg. According to you, her husband is an alcoholic and highly emptional. Imagine he catches the two of you playing. Imagine he has a gun. Or a knife. Or just his fists. You would never get to explain that situation. You would be dead or in a hospital before you ever knew what hit you. You two are violating one of the most basic principles of human society. People that have been cheated on are very prone to acts of rage.

    Moreover, your actions prove the exact opposite of what you are trying to achive. Sebastian has been very diplomatic about this, I won't be. To be dominant means to be in control, first and foremost, of yourself. This means self confidence, self reliance and above all self respect. You do not respect yourself. You describe your past as weak and pathetic and now wish to "reverse" that past by placing others in your past position. You are not accepting your sub as an individual but instead try to use her as a vessel to project your submissive past on. To be a dom means to know and respect your sub and his/her personality, desires and feelings. You don't do that and judging from your posts you don't want to. You want to bend her into something she is not.
    You wish to overcome your weakness, but you are perpetuating it by sacrificing your own self esteem. Instead of walking upright and controling yourself until you find a suitable sub, you are willing to stoop down to invading an existing relationship. You are not building one, but abusing another human beings love and trust to get what you want. You are even deluding yourself into believing that the limitations the situation impose on you, that you cannot mark her, are positive because they test your self control. If you had self control, you would not need those limitations. Its not self control that keeps you from marking her, its the fear that you might lose her as a pet. You are not even self sufficient in keeping your wrongdoing secret, but instead feel the need to look for advice on how to perpetuate it.

    You try to build a feeling of security by keeping your secrets while gathering information about her for "when she decides to get stupid" on you. I can't even begin to desribe how wrong this is. Instead of building on trust, you are preparing to blackmail her into obedience, if need be. This is not trust in neither her nor yourself. This is an attempt to excert control on a level that goes beyond any scope of BDSM, human decency or legality.

    What you are doing, to her, your baby and yourself is abuse, plain and simple. You are abusing the husbands trust, your own self esteem and respect, her trust by preparing to blackmail her and your baby's trust and love by showing her that the integrity of a relationship does not matter to you when you want something.
    You cannot even answer the question where this is supposed to go, beyond your nebulous goal of "extinguishing your past as a sub". You will never achieve that goal. Your past is part of who you are. To try to erase it is a futile as trying to erase time itself. Accept and learn to live with it. You need to take several steps back, stop what you are doing and figure out what exactly you want and how you can achieve it in a safe, legal and sane way. Until you do that, you should refrain from everything BDSM.

    It sounds like your past was one of abuse and not BDSM and that your old "dom" did not care for a single second about you or your needs and desires. Now, you are trying to overcome your past by becoming the person who abused you. You are not coming to terms with your past, but recreating it with different players. And that is a clear sign that what you need is not BDSM, but time with yourself and very possibly counseling.
     
  7. sillylittlepet

    sillylittlepet Active Member

    There are fewer people here? And fewer kinky women? What?

    As a kinky female sub, I'm gonna have to echo PS and sebastian. They both make excellent points, and in general cheating is a pretty douche thing to do

    Find a new sub, there are so many submissive women out there if you look in the right place, there is absolutely no reason to get involved with someone who already has a partner (and a partner whose being kept in the dark!)

    The advice is move on
     
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  8. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    silly, I was referring to my geographical location, its a bit remote.

    I was not prepared for such a dose of reality. All the points made are valid, and obviously should have been thought out more on my part.

    It certainly is not the most healthy way to work out my issues, and the various excuses, I could make would only be going against logic...

    For what its worth, I am not snooping information on her, its all freely given, by her. I would not have considered this, if by our conversations I was gleening anything but honesty, towards me.... I am not a stalker, or looking to mess up her life. She has told me 'we both do our own thing' referring to her husband, so perhaps I care less, because of that. Also, we have not been sexual, so far this is only a mind screw... We have met twice for friendly tea. Other then that its has only been play online. I have, been taking it slow.
     
  9. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    Alaskan, I realize that the dating situation up there is a little challenging. I have a friend who used to live up in Juneau, and she liked to joke that up there, you don't break up with someone, you just lose your place in line. But I'm certain there are other kinky women up there. The Alaskan 'lifestyle' probably attracts a lot of dominant men and submissive women. Perhaps there is a local munch you can make contact with. If not, start one.

    PS makes a lot of important points that I agree with. The more this thread goes on, the more I think the real issue (as PS points out) is your past. Could you tell us more about the sub period in your life? It sounds like it wasn't very healthy emotionally, and you've shifted from one unhealthy behavior to another.
     
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  10. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    A

    My past, is no worse then anyone else's and I'm not looking for sympathy, but since you asked, here it goes.

    I was raised with one sister. We were raised by pothead hoarders, in filth. Our lives revolved around the paranoia that someone might find out, and we would be taken away from our parents. I love my parents, but I truly hate what they did to us. Made me odd, queer, antisocial. It made my sister turn to drugs and sex.

    When I was 6 and she was 4 I watched her be raped by our 13 yo cousin. We kept of a secret for a couple weeks, I don't really know why past shame. When it came out it was of course dramatic, but all that really happened was we no longer had contact with that part of the family. That whole thing taught me that sex was something that is taken, not shared. It's something I know is wrong now, but later down the line...

    My father thought he hid his porn well enough I guess. My sister and I would he left alone for extended periods of time. After we found it, we began watching it together. I will not go into the details, but I think I don't have to.

    I still feel shame for letting our cousin do that to my sister. I feel greater shame, for what we did together. My sister and I have reconciled, and we have both healed, mostly, from the pain of our childhood.

    So fast forward; I'm 19, and I meet my first wife. We marry and have a daughter. Time passes, we have a son. After my son is born, we move here. She was a decent enough wife, I was making good money, things are well.

    I then get into an accident. I am messed up badly. I can't walk. About a week after getting home, she brings up, she's horny. I can't move my dick due to the meds I'm on. She knows of my leanings towards curiosity of men, and brings up we try swinging. I was addled on some serious meds and thinking about it now, I hate her for bringing this up when I couldn't think straight.

    But she did, I agreed, and so began the end of my marriage. Things became bad, she would play, not let me play. Throw things in my face. She also began hitting me, not hard but fairly regularly, and it began to eat at me. I began to do things to hurt her.

    On my birthday many years ago now, she told me she was leaving me for a man who had been living with us as her boyfriend. I pleaded, begged, I did not want to lose my family. A couple weeks before this, we had our third child. She would not hear it, and I left and began living with some friends we met in the lifestyle.

    I had been living with them for about a month, when I asked baby out on a date. I met her outside the lifestyle. I'm open with her that I am having sex with every woman in the house, and I don't want to stop. I told her this on our third date, and to my surprise she was eager to know more, to watch....

    It's 6 years later now. Baby and I are closer and more loving to each other then I ever thought was possible. She has been helping me to develop my dominant personality, as I have never had an open opportunity to do so. She enjoys seeing my confidence grow, my assertive side pushing out. She wants a man who is not kept. I am slowly becoming that. It's not an easy thing to change, but I do desperately want to change it.

    I hate my ex for putting her sex before her fam. In the end, I feel I am better off for losing her, but part of me wants all our children together again.

    She kept me what she wanted, and it drove me to a weak and sad place, helpless and not in control. I will not be weak and sad when it comes to my desire, ever again, and I do not feel shame for it.

    I do not mean to come off as someone who is full of hate, I'm not. I feel like if in can in some ways control this married woman, then I can somehow control my thoughts, my past.

    I know this is wrong on some level but I have little respect for monogamy, less for marriage. It seems to me a piece paper means little. My pet sought me out. I did not force her to place the ad.

    I do also realize that this is not the greatest thing to be risking my family now. I just feel again, like deserve it

    This is fairly rambling and probaly not the most accurate memory of events, but it is what got me to this point.

    I am no longer actively involved in swinging, I do still moderate a local group. Curiously, I would not consider casual sex with a married woman in the swinging life if her partner didn't know, I in fact boot people who are looking to cheat. I feel hypocritical for it, but in this, I find I am mainly considering my own gratification.

    Well there it is Sebastian.
     
  11. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    Alaskan, that's some pretty heavy stuff. I'm sorry you've had to deal with all of that. Many people who are into bdsm have experienced abuse, so you're not alone here in that (although I haven't experienced abuse). BDSM does frequently provide a mechanism for understanding and processing abusing experiences. It's not therapy, but it can help.

    That said, I think you're in danger of trying to express your feelings about your past through BDSM. Domming, for example, should never be done out of anger, and subbing should never be done out of a sense that one is worthless and deserves abuse (although humiliation play is very hot when the sub is emotionally sturdy enough for it).

    What I'm worried about is that you might begin to express your anger at your wife through your treatment of your sub, or something similar. BDSM can bring up very intense feelings and doms and subs can sometimes get lost in those feelings. During play, a sub can begin thinking that her dom is her abusive father or husband, for example. While this doesn't always happen, it can happen, particularly if dom or sub have emotional issues they have not consciously confronted.

    So I'd suggest that you see a therapist to get some perspective on your childhood and the failure of your marriage. You clearly have a lot of anger and feelings of humiliation from your experiences, and therapy would help you make sense of them and perhaps get some closure on them. You don't need therapy for your interest in bdsm, just for making sure that you can express it in emotionally healthy ways. Also, once you have understanding of your deeper emotional issues, you can consciously explore them in your play sessions, in ways that can help you feel in control of those issues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2011
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  12. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    I am going to say this in the simplest possible words: You need professional help. I am no professional psychologist, but I do have some experience in the field, with rape & violence victims in particular. There are so many red flags in your post that I don't even know where to start.

    I am going to summarize the key elements here as I see them, but please keep in mind, I am not a professional. It is imperative that you take whatever I say in that light and make sure that you check back with a professional before taking it as true. What I write here is an analysis of what you said, but will be flawed by the censorship you may have imposed on yourself and my limited background knowledge of the actual events.

    Your past is one of abuse and neglect and I cannot even begin to comprehend the scars it must have left you with, but do yourself a favor and place blame where it belongs and not where it suits you.

    Your parents were not parents to you, but no amount of bad parenting can dictate your life forever. Your parents did not make you odd, queer or anti-social. Those were your reactions to the enviroment you lived in. However, you have left that enviroment and now it has become a choice to remain a victim or to become your own man and leave your past behind. I realize full well how difficult that is. It takes time, help and a lot of work but it is possible. It is also the only way to leave the vicious cycle of abuse you are still in.

    I am not going to focus on details, but the common elements in your past as you describe it. First and foremost, your impression and understanding of sex is an unhealthy one. You were introduced to the concept at an age where you were unable to understand or relate to it. In key points in your life, sex has been intrinsicly linked to violence and disloged from love and care. You actively spend time to perpetuate the notion that sex and relationships are seperate entities.

    Furthermore, you consider losing your family a flaw and a weakness. It is not. You were physically ill. Instead of supporting you, your wife abused your state to get your "consent" to fullfil her own desires. Once she realized she could not delude herself into having your consent any longer, she cheated openly and abused you emotionally and physically to keep you in submission. Eventually, she left you of her own free will. I am sure you made your own mistakes along the way, but you could not have kept her from leaving you.

    Finally, you measure the world with a double standart. One for yourself and one for the rest. You even realize this yourself, but you do not go the whole nine yards. You hate your ex-wife for placing her own sexual desires before your feelings and family, but you do the same to your new pet and Baby. You told Baby that you would not stop having sex with other women, at the risk of losing her. You justify your actions towards your new pet by saying that "a slip of paper doesn't mean much to you". It used to matter greatly to you. Beyond that, a marriage is not a slip of paper. Its an emotional bond of trust and intimacy, a shared history and love. She may have placed an add, but it was your choice to respond to it. Once you found out she is married, you should have ended it. You did not, and now you have become what you blamed your ex-wife for. And even after realizing that, you feel justified in your actions because you were hurt before.

    Let me put this as simple as possible: Two wrongs do not make a right. You were dealt many unfair and cruel blows in your life, but that does not give you the right to do the same. You wish to be a dominant and in control person. In order to be that, you need to stand on solid moral and ethical grounds. You need to be able to control yourself and refrain from doing wrong. Right now, you seem to confuse dominance with power over people and control with the ability to deal out abuse arbitarily.

    I really cannot stress this enough, you need to find professional help. You are sabotaging yourself and your relationships and you will end up hurting yourself and others if you continue down that path. You need to sort out your moral compass and ensure yourself a stable and healthy enviroment. Stop what you are doing and find some help. You owe it to yourself.
     
  13. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    The therapy I have received to this point has not helped. They wanted to drug me, or basically just wanted me to get over it. I do have anger. I do not let it control me like I used to. I guess I personally feel like I have come a long way, but when it all comes out, it is fairly obvious I have not.

    That is depressing.

    I was not looking for validation of my actions when I posted. I was curious about how truly messed up the situation really is.

    And, it's obvious its beyond my capabilities at this point to be what I need to be to a sub, and baby as well.

    That's a bit more depressing.

    I do not consider myself a bad person. It stings to read the contempt against my actions. It's obviously something I must deal with. These things are not as trivial as I treat them.
     
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  14. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    If the therapy you have received has not worked, look for a different therapist. Not every therapist can work with every patient. The last therapist I had was such a poor match for me that I eventually fired him. (Overall, I'd say that about 65% of the therapists I've worked with have been right for me.) So keep looking around for a therapist that you click with. I find that I need to talk out my problems--if I talk enough, I eventually figure out where the issue springs from, and that usually allows me to get a handle on it. Other people respond well to mediciation. Still others need practical strategies without lots of self-reflection and others need things like psychodrama. Eventually you will find a process that feels right to you.

    What usually doesn't work is just ignoring the issue and hoping it will go away, or thinking you can just control your feelings. Feelings are like water; they will always find a way around any obstacles. So if you repress your anger to yourself, eventually it will start pouring out in some unexpected way (like when you're torturing a sub). That's why I'm concerned about you. BDSM goes to very dark places, and often a dom has a sub completely helpless. So if you lose control while playing with your sub, all kinds of disaster could ensue.

    Another benefit to therapy is that you get a different perspective on an issue. I remember once that a therapist asked me to explain something I was afraid of. I spent about 10 minutes laying out my fear, at which point she asked me to explain it again. And again. She kept saying that she didn't understand what I was trying to say. And it gradually dawned on me that the issue really made no sense at all, but because I was inside the problem, I couldn't see it for the irrational thing it was. You've already gotten some of that on this thread--you wanted to know what it looked like to us, and you've discovered that it looks very different to people on the outside than it does to you. A therapist can give you that perspective in a much more skilled way than we can.

    I don't think any of us are telling you to break things off with your pet. You may well need a sub to help anchor you as you go through the difficult process of really understand how your past has hurt you. But we're all agreed that playing with Baby is a bad idea. I suppose one alternative to breaking up with her is tell her that she needs to either stop playing with you or leave her husband (assuming that getting his permission isn't an option). But that raises its own challenges--if she leaves you for him, you're making a serious commitment to her. Overall, I think breaking up with her is your best choice.
     
  15. Alaskan

    Alaskan New Member

    I should have been more clear, baby is my fiancé, she is not sub to me. She wants to be, I resist it. I'm not sure why.
     
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