Snuff Films

Sate_Sprie · Oct 21, 2010

Master and I were watching a documentary on snuff films and it made me wonder what everyone else thought about them. I personally think they do exist, I don't really see a reason why they wouldn't. What do you guys think?

sillylittlepet · Oct 22, 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuff_films

People have some pretty sick interests, but I dont really think there are any profit making snuff films (seems like a pretty niche and risky market)

Basically you'd be making a film where the entertainment value comes from a death or murder that YOU (the company) have deliberately set up, then you sell that film for profit. Its not something you keep to yourself, and its not something you filmed by accident or had no hand in (ie, execution)

I guess its possible that they exist and there just isnt any evidence for it yet, but I'm not really convinced.

Sate_Sprie · Oct 22, 2010

I've done a lot of research on them through the years. I have a great interest in the psychology behind sexual perversions of different sorts. Anyhow, I've always thought the same as you do about them being too risky and a niche which does make a lot of sense. It's also important, however to consider that once upon a time pretty much everything was risky as far as pornography goes, even though snuff is definitely not really in the same category. Snuff, although it's murder, isn't necessarily any more niche than child pornography, and only slightly more risky, so I definitely think it's possible. I do think it would be even more likely in countries with relaxed law enforcement and poor social standards. I'm also borderline on whether or not I really truly believe it exists. I see no reason it wouldn't, but I feel the same way you do, why hasn't there been more discoveries of various snuff films? I guess that could spark the argument for snuff films also being films murders make of there conquests, although that argument isn't really sound, as a snuff film is characteristically made for profit and not for private gratification.

It seems as if society as a whole has a perversion for death. Horror movies are just that, a fake, comfortable level of death. There's just a fine line between what we're comfortable seeing and what we are not.

sillylittlepet · Oct 22, 2010

The difference is there are lots of instances of child pornography and other felony related fetishes, but not a single documented instance of snuff. Why? Maybe it doesnt exist! I know it sounds crazy, but maybe it actually doesn't exist.

I think, for the vast majority of people, seeing a fake death and seeing a real death are completely different. To the point where there's no comparison. Society has a perversion for staged death, not the real thing

sebastian · Oct 22, 2010

The basic problem with the existence of snuff films is the legality of them. Making them is obviously completely illegal, 1st degree murder here in the US. Everyone involved in the making of them would be liable to conspiracy charges and other related charges. Those who distributed, sold, or showed such films would also be liable to conspiracy charges, as would those who purchased or viewed them. In essence the entire production change is liable to severe criminal charges. Murder is far more serious than child pornography.

Now, in any murder, there is the basic problem of disposing of the evidence and the body. To achieve this successfully, you need to avoid leaving evidence around. But in a snuff film, you can't dispose of the evidence, because the movie is the evidence. The whole point of it is produce evidence. No sane criminal would do this, because once the movie passes out of his hands, the possibility of getting caught remains for the rest of his life. He can't ever know for certain that authorities won't catch someone from the supply chain of the movie who will eventually be able to finger him as the killer.

Lets say the Feds find a snuff film. Eventually they will find someone associated with it. If the find the guy who owns it, they will be able to find out where he bought it. If they find out where he bought it, they will eventually track down someone involved in the production. And that will more or less lead them to the killer. Such a chain of events would be a huge news story. But no news story like this has ever come up.

For all these reasons, and for the simple fact that there's no actual evidence of such a film existing, it's pretty clear that snuff films are urban legends.

Sate_Sprie · Oct 22, 2010

There actually is one case of Snuff that I know of. It was in Russia, and it was child snuff. That man got out of prison in 2005. He was bringing them into the U.S to sell and the distributor got caught, and like Sebastian said the chain of events were unfolded. Several people were put in jail, and the two Americans that supposedly bought his films were never discovered. That's the only case that is public that I know of.

As far as society only having a perversion for stage death, I'd beg to differ. I think society has a perversion of all death, or else movies such as Faces of death wouldn't be wildly popular, and that's mainly just fake scenes and dieing animals. You also can't deny the fact that anything associated with a death people want to see, such as the Mr. Hands video where the horse fucked that dude and he supposedly died. There are many videos circulating the internet of deaths via car crashes, the beheading of soldiers ect. I can agree that there is no comparison and that fake verses real is very different. I also think that people want to see death mainly of interest. Just because they don't like it in the way in which they enjoy a horror movie doesn't mean the perversion doesn't exist. I'm sure it doesn't in everyone, but I think it's safe to say most people would watch death if given an opportunity simply out of curiosity. That scenario of course is still very different from killing or purchasing a snuff film.

I'd feel comfortable saying that I don't think a snuff film exists in the U.S, Canada, the UK, ect. I do think though, in other countries with slack law enforcement that it would be very easy for one to be produced and circulated, just like it would be easier to cover up a murder there.

The simple lack of news coverage, as Sebastian said makes the Snuff film an urban legend, at least in evolved societies. How could a snuff film not be discovered and a new story surface? That may be true here at least, but I'm sure it's not everywhere.

sebastian · Oct 22, 2010

Another important thing to consider is the problem of evidence. Anyone who believes in a conspiracy theory (and snuff films are essentially a type of conspiracy) often points to the absence of evidence of the conspiracy as a sign of a successful conspiracy. But basic logic knows without evidence, a belief cannot be considered true, and in most cases must be considered probably false. (An exemption might be made for the messy question of the existence of God, but many would disagree.) Without real evidence of a snuff film industry, logic requires us to say that it is unlikely that such an industry exists.

Another problem with conspiracy theories is that they usually require superhuman powers of concealment. For snuff films to exist, the participants must be amazingly skilled at hiding the evidence of the crime, distributing it without getting caught, and keeping both producers and consumers entirely hidden. So that means that no consumer and no producer has ever had a change of conscience and reported to authorities, no one has ever confessed such sins to their minister (who are required to report crimes that hurt others), no one has ever produced a deathbed confession, no one has ever squealed on associates to get a lesser sentence, no one has been repulsed by watching one and turned it over to authorities, and no criminal has ever been caught in possession of one, or been discovered in the process of making one. And remember, criminals tend to be stupid. That's a major reason why they go into crime instead of supporting themselves legitimately. How an industry that is by definition staffed by idiots is somehow maintaining superhuman discretion. Just not possible.

sebastian · Oct 22, 2010

Oh, and I think you might be confusing the Russian case. A Russian child pornography ring was busted in Italy, not the US. One British source said that the footage included children dying in captivity. But it's not clear from that source that they were 'snuffed' (the wording suggests simply that they died, not that they were killed), and it appears to be essentially child pornography, not a snuff film. This was 10 years ago, and nothing more seems to have emerged about the case. I found one reference to supposedly 1500 people being arrested in Italy, but if that were the case, it would have been a huge news story.

One reason I'm very skeptical of the story is that most of the coverage on the web that I've found emphasizes the ideas that the perpetrators were a Russian Jewish mafia. There is a very long history of false accusations that Jews murder children; it's called the Blood Libel, and it traces back to 13th century Germany. It is a standard piece of anti-Semitic propaganda. The story emphasizes that Italian rabbis tried to cover the case up but were foiled by Italian journalists. So I think this story is false. I found a reference on a website to Snopes.com debunking this case, but I can't find that entry on their site.

Sate_Sprie · Oct 22, 2010

That case your talking about may be one in the same. I had originally thought no cases existed what so ever and I first heard about that case on the documentary I watched. I did a paper on child pornography crimes for college, and included that very Russian case you speak of. This one, that the documentary discussed, was reportedly an actual snuff film involving a child. The Russians in question were originally making child porn and the snuff films were a request. They caught him via wire tap having an exchange where he was selling the requested child snuff film. Of course, you can't take 100% stock in anything a documentary says as they're all subject to bias. They could have been fabricating the story or taking things out of context for the sake of the documentary. I'll try to re-watch it later and get the name so I can reference who exactly it was they were talking about and see if it is indeed one in the same.

I can understand your views on there being no evidence and criminals being clumsy. I actually never really thought it through quite that way, all though that probably should have been fairly obvious.

sillylittlepet · Oct 22, 2010

The documentary could be wrong, I've also heard that the child died during the filming, but it was not intentional

Snuff Films

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