Seeking advice on how to handle my fiancé's newfound desires.

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RosieA

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I would agree with SLP and Phillyskin talking is the best option here.

Is there perhaps a way to find starter kits? I'm interested into getting someone involved but he is always going overboard with new interests. And buys a ton of stuff we do not need for starters.

A starter box/kit would help him out a bit. Any suggestions?
 
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All right, here's an update. Last night we had a very long, exhausting talk, but things have gone back into motion.

Yesterday was her girl's night out, so I had planned to await her at home with a little suprise to set the mood for our talk and give her an incentive to listen to me properly. Before that I was out shopping with a friend of mine who is also her best friend. He is into submissive BDSM, something I suspected (she had no clue) but neither of us knew until her coming out. While we were out she send him a text that she felt aweful and needed to talk to him. He did not inform me of this text, which is fine, he is her best friend after all. Later that night, while I was still out, he called me and informed me that she was at home terrified I might break off our relationship. So, instead of my well laid plans of preparation and suprise, I went home to her waiting for me.

Once I arrived, we started talking. I patiently listened to her troubles involving her boss and how people started talking at the office and her fears that I might break it off.

I proceded by giving her a little speech I had planned and prepared, which I would like your feedback on. The point of it was twofold: First I wanted to accept my position as her dominant which she had been asking me to, but I have been reluctant to do. Second, I wanted to place her into the mindset that my orders at any given time take precedence over any others, including those that might be violated by them or trigger conditions. By asserting that our sexuality is an integral part of us, regardless of wether it is overt or covert, I could consruct the point of view that we have been in this dynamic since we very beginning and that her coworker has interfered on it.

Since the day we first met, I have been your dominant, you have been my devoté.
Since the day we first met, I have been your top, you have been my bottom.
Since the day we first met, I have been your dominant, you have been my submissive.

My authority is the begining and the end.
My authority is the definition of your being.
Without my authority you are nothing.
There is no autority except mine.

All orders except mine have no authority.
All orders except mine that you follow have no authority.
All orders except mine are no orders.
There are no orders except mine.

Every other person who tries to give you an order, has no authority.
Every other person who tries to give you an order, challenges my authority.
Every person who challenges my authority will submit or be destroyed.
There is no authority except mine.

I made sure that she understood the implications of my statement and that this was a requirement for both the talks and our relationship to continue. She displayed a bit of discomfort by the conviction and seriousness of my voice while I held the little speech, but stated that she agreed and understood both the statements and the implications and accepted them.

After that, we had a long talk in which I told her that I felt that under my definition of intimacy and sex (the later quoted directly from Sebastians post), I had to conclude that she had cheated on me. This is something she is scared of because she knows I ended my last relationship because of this. (She was also a bit pissed because a year ago I had an "almost" moment with my best lady friend. I told her about this before and she didn't mind, but yesterday felt like maybe she should.) I also told her that I understood the turmoil of her coming out and that I was willing to forgive her the transgretions, provided we come to mutual terms on how to move forward. Mutual as in, I dictate what I am unwilling to accept and she either accepts or choses to end our relationship.

  • All BDSM and non platonic relationships outside of ours are ended.
  • New ones can only begin with my express consent, which I will not give before I feel 100% certain about my own sexuality and comfortable with the prospect.
  • She starts reading up on the material and starts to get information independant from him and forms her own understanding of BDSM.
  • She is allowed to maintain a platonic friendship with her coworker, but is to confine it to the workplace until I have talked to him. If this talk goes badly, the friendship either ends or our relationship does.

We continued to talk after this, played the blame game for a bit but eventually reached fertile ground where she started to tell me her feelings beyond what she wants at the moment and criticaly evaluated her behaviour. Similarly, I told her my feelings, why I was hurt and that the above was the absolute limit of what I am able to do right now and for a good time in the future. I further told her that I want to see the developements of her coming out and my own reveleations about my sexuality as a chance and that I truly believe that we can become stronger and closer for it than we ever were. She reiterated that she was unwilling to risk our relationship and we both agreed to work together to make it work. We eventually went to sleep but continued to talk through the night and eventually reached a point where we could banter and laugh together freely for the first time in what feels like an eternity.

Man why even talk to this guy
talk to her, but he's not worth your time. Whats there to discuss with him?!
Normaly, I would agree, but there are some things that need doing:
  • I need to confront him on the orders Issue. My speech lay the groundwork, but it may be flawed or he may have worded smarter than me. If he never gave her such an order, he will have no trouble revoking any and all previous orders to her in front of the both of us and if he did, his refusal will tell me what I need to know.
  • I must consider the possibility that my preconceptions, lack of understanding and emotionality have let to me being unfair. This does not excuse his actions, but may have, in part, made the whole thing worse than it needed to be.
  • I have, due to work and stress, made the mistake of not listening to my fiancé properly when she tried to tell me about him before her coming out. I realize that now and this makes me partially responsible for what has happened.
  • The two of them are coworkers and this is not going to change. Furthermore, she sees a soulmate in him and I really do not want (and doubt I can) take that away from her. In order to give her a fair chance, I have to try and make it work.
  • I found out that he is a lot younger than I thought and cannot help but feel that he may simply be inexperienced and socialy klumsy as opposed to calculating and vicious. If I am right, he deserves a second chance.
  • If he is in an uncaring asshole I feel that I need to make him see, understand and accept his responsibilities in the whole story, lest he can discard me and the events as a stupid, misinformed idiot and move on to harm the next relationship he comes across, because I failed to make him see that he is the problem.
Yesterday night was the first time I felt like my fiancé and me were making real progress and this is to no small part due to the information and advice from you guys. For that, I once again wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart. :)
 
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sebastian

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Glad we could help, P.S. Communication is the foundation for successful BDSM, and it sounds like you're laying a good foundation. I think the stuff you've said to her is a really good beginning.

Learning to be a dom takes practice. You need to develop your confidence in your ability to be in control, so focus on that. Work on developing a few core skills, such as effective tit torture, or basic rope work, so that you can feel confident about some basic issues, and then gradually explore other forms of play.

You probably don't want to jump in 24/7 right away. That takes a sense of confidence. So work up to that gradually. Track down a couple of the books in the FAQ and do some reading.

Telling her that you don't want her being friends with this co-worker is an entirely reasonable thing, given how things started. Doms have the right to veto the friends a slave have, especially in a situation that could interfere with both your power exchange and your basic relationship.

Good luck with it all, and stay around the forum. We'd love to hear how things go.
 
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Thank you. I will take the time to read some more and work on my skillset. We spend the evening last night talking about soft and hard limits, discussing our ideas of the whole thing, setting up safety precautions and the like. We also talked about past events in our relationship and how they relate to BDSM and it seems we have been at it for quite a while on a subconcious level without realizing it.
As it turns out, she seems to care about pain play & bondage a lot more than dominance. Humiliation play doesn't appeal to either of us, so we won't worry about that. Since master/slave play turns her off (particularly the terms), we decided to focus on bondage play and no tools for a while and see where it takes us.
We explored pain thresholds a little, employing the ample system to figure out what we like and what goes beyond our desires and it feels like a good starting point to build a foundation.

24/7 is out of the question for both of us, I know the speech might have suggested it, but we have talked about it and concluded that neither one of us is interested in that. Above all, we have decided together that we want and need to take it slow and ease into it gradually.

I had another semi accidental run in with her coworker when I picked her up from work and we agreed on meeting for a talk in the future. Despite my reluctance, I found that it was a lot easier to face him than I had thought and actually looking him in the eye I found that subjectively he seems much less of a threat and much less of a villain than before. For what its worth, I had no desire to beat him up but rather felt he needs some guideance and boundaries instead.
There are still things that need talking over with both of them and it will require a firm and decisive stance, but I am now confident that both I and my relationship are able to take it. I guess being confronted with my own sexuality played a much bigger role than I was willing to admit originally.

I do plan to stick around, aside from valuing the feedback you guys have to offer, I kind of like it here. ;)
 
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sebastian

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It's possible that this other dom is simply inexperienced and unread, and is just floundering around in his own fantasies, unsure of how to take things further or meet a sub to play with. That doesn't mean he's not an asshole--he decided it was appropriate to play with another man's fiance. As you develop your confidence in your dominance, he's gonna seem less and less of a threat.
 
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WildsweetSwitch

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Ok P.S.Eudonym, I've read everything in this post, top to bottom (haha no pun intended).

First, just from reading your excessively worded post, I have a feeling that your submissive fiancee finds you to be rather submissive. I mean, I find you to be submissive from your words alone here. For someone who wants to be dominated, that's a pretty big turn off.

Secondly, it's possible she found her "soulmate coworker" to be exciting and more aggressive/dominant than you, hence their attraction. He showed interest in what she was interested in. She probably enjoyed their interactions because, while she may love you and have an all-around nice relationship with you, the coworker gives her the satisfaction of a strong dominant partner who's interested in BSDM. It's a hard balance to strike, when you love someone, but there's just that small something missing. To me, it seems like you're coming at this idea of BSDM for her, in a very clinical scientific way... where is the passion?

Lastly, when you two were trying out BSDM (before she "came out" to you) she might have enjoyed it more if you seemed to enjoy it as well. As soon as you weren't into it, (since you prefer "normal" sex) she wasn't into it.

Also, I'd just like to say that while reading your overly explained version of events, it became clear to me that you are trying to justify something to yourself with all those words. As I read it, all those words are hiding something. Even if you two had a really good talk about all this, I'd still examine your true feelings, and keep talking. Don't table the issue.

Good luck :)
 
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I can see how excessive wording can be seen as submissive or an attempt to get someone on your side, but in this particular case the detail provided is a safeguard. Since I wish(ed) to make a real attempt at understanding the material and situation, I think it necessary to provide the full story to avoid self censorship that distorts the picture and thus taints any advice given.

You are, however, correct that her coworker was a lot more agressive than I was and am, but from what I have heard he has taken several steps back from that. If I am to believe my sources, there has been no non platonic contact between the two of them since I asked them to stop. You are also correct that my approach to BDSM (and everything else for that matter) is (was) rather clinical. I have always been like that and have been working on it for years now.

As to our original experiments, quite the opposite actually. I was getting into it and she wasn't. She originially enjoyed the kink of it, but admitted to be a bit scared at my enthusiasm, so she ended it. Part of my predicament is that I have trained myself for years to not cross the lines she now wishes me to cross. Overcomming that conditioning has proven to be hard.

You are entirely correct that my first three posts are in fact, hiding my insecurity about my own sexuality at that point. Comming here was a mixture of curiosity, real and forced interest and the desire to come to terms with the situation, preferably without my point of view changing even in the slightest. Had I read the FAQ and similar sources first, my original post would have been of equal length but would also include a lot less tension and uncertainty. I have since began the process of coming to terms with my sexuality and morality.

Thanks for taking the time and for your input. It is appreciated. :)

Update for all of you:
My fiancé and me came back from a long weekend to see my sisters graduation ceremony last night. We had a great time and I feel we have made a few decent steps towards regaining trust and normality in our relationship. I expressed my consent for her to exchange phone numbers with her coworker prior to that. (Funny actually, she told me she didn't even have his number, I asked her if she wanted it. Her expression of suprise and her failed attempts not to laugh still crack me up.) Despite being slightly annoyed at them texting, I am pleased to find out that I did not mind it much. I am going to meet her coworker over drinks for a talk tomorrow night to adress the orders issue and to figure out wether or not there may be a trust base down the road or not. I'll try to be diplomatic but I also am going to accuse him of cheating and behaving like an asshole. Depending on how he takes that, things may go up- or downhill.
 
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Here's another update and its a big one.

Last night, her coworker and I met in a bar to talk. Originally, the plan was to meet solo while my fiancé has her girls night out, but circumstances changed that a little. He had injured his foot over the weekend and couldn't drive, so my fiancé dropped him off at the bar. Since I was delayed in traffic and she was anxious how things would turn out, she decided to stick around until I arrived. When I did, they had already ordered drinks so it was the three of us for about 45 minutes. During that time, we talked relatively freely about nothing in particular, basically having a friendly conversation. I am pleased to say that my insecurities and agression towards him were gone and I felt rather comfortable even with the discussion ahead. Whatever happened that night, I had resolved that he was no threat to me any longer.

During that discussion I discovered what my fiancé had been bursting to tell me but felt she couldn't because she believed it wasn't her place. At some point, he (accidentaly) used the phrase "my fiancé's daughter" which made me almost jump in my seat. Turns out he is engaged himself in an open relationship that is fine with sex and BDSM outside their relationship. At the very least, this resolved the "in love with my fiancé" issue, though I still asked him later and he denied it believably.

After she had finished her drink, my fiancé took off and we started talking seriously. I started by telling him that his behaviour tonight would determine wether or not there was a future for their friendship but I also told him that ultimately this was not my decision but hers. I can ask her to break it off, but only she actually can make that call. She had told me before that she would if I asked her and he told me that she hald also told him this. I also apologized for threatening and bluffing him, feeling that I had been wrong in doing so.

I proceded to tell him that I believed that they had cheated on me and he had behaved like an asshole. I also told him the realization that my initial reservations and prejudice towards BDSM were a transfer my mind had made. If BDSM is evil, my fiancé is a victim and she didn't cheat on me. The same mechanic seems to have been at work when I gave my permission(s) for their games. If I have consented, it was a choice and not cheating, hence I have no reason to be hurt. (Yeah, my mind works like that. It just takes some time to figure out the signals my instincts send me.) Before I could finish he started to basically tell me what I had wanted to tell him from his point of view, in essence proving that he arrived at the same conclusions I did and seemed to genuinely feel sorry when he apologized.

Here's how it went from his point of view: He had been hidding from his sexuality for years until he was finally introduced to it. When he had his comming out, he felt so happy and fullfilled that he began to resent the time he spend hidding from himself and the prejudice he harbored that kept him from exploring. When he felt my fiancé to be in the same situation, he basically turned his active thinking, safeguards and better judgement off, telling himself it was for her benefit. In short, he believed to be saving her from herself. (at this point I wanted to beat him, but managed to restrain myself and continued to listen.) However, after meeting me and spending some time thinking on our encounters, he discarded his initial feeling of righteousness that he had based on my lack of understanding and prejudices and came to realize that he was in fact deluding himself and that he went foreward because he couldn't stand the situation. He had put himself in her position and transfered his past desire to be "freed" onto her and due to this, felt justified in moving foreward. He realized that he had not been acting for her benefit and well being but for his own and that he had been wrong to do so.
Ultimately, he accepted the responsibility for his decisions and apologized for them. Then he earned my respect by offering me, without any promting, to say the word and he would disappear from her life. (This weights doubly considering that his fiancé lives in town and he was just offered a permanent position in their company. Currently, he is still a freelancer with them.)

Furthermore, from his point of view, now that my fiancé and I have started experimenting and he has realized that he overstepped his bounds, he feels no desire to keep up anything else than a platonic friendship to her. This is due to both the fact that he knows that I am not cool with it and that he feels no further desire to play with her knowing how he overstepped his bounds and deluded himself. (He basically admitted he had in fact been unwilling to listend to anything I said in our prior encounters, because he had written me off as a prejudiced asshole unable to understand a word he said. He apologized for that too.)

After this, we continued to talk about BDSM and sexuality in general, sharing opinions and how the story went for each of us individually. I told him of my suspicions that he was not as experienced as he made out to be and he basically agreed that while he was booksmart, many things that had come up in the past two weeks had never been an issue before because everyone had always been on board so far and none bothered with the finer points and understanding. When I eventually dropped the bomb with the orders issue he seemed genuinely taken aback and when I asked him if he would be fine with revoking each and every past order in my presence he agreed immediately. Upon seeing his face and gauging his reaction, I felt this was unnecessary and dropped the issue both in discussion and as a fear of mine.

We continued to talk for quite a while but to make a long story short, either he is the world's greatest con artist, in which case he deserves to have fooled me, or (much more likely) I have finally managed to break through to the real person. Once there, I found he was a rather likeable fellow. Eventually we called my fiancé to join us and I dropped my reservations towards their friendship, feeling that a basis of trust had been established on fertile grounds. We continued to talk until closing time before dropping him off and going home.

I has been a while since I slept as well and sound as I did this night.

It'll still take a long time to establish real trust, but now I feel confident that the immediate issue has been resolved and that we all have come out stronger for it. This would not have been possible without this board as both a vent for me and a source of advice and support from you guys and for that, I wish to once again thank you from the bottom of my heart. :)
 
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sebastian

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PS, I'm glad that you feel that you were able to resolve things amicably. It's a really good sign that when he was confronted with his inappropriate behavior, he acknowledged it and apologized. It doesn't prove he's not an asshole all by itself, but it does go a long way in that direction. I guess my advice would be to try and build a friendship, or at least a BDSM social group with this guy and his fiance. It helps to have other kinky people to talk with, both to feel that you're not alone and to have someone to discuss questions, problems, techniques and so on with.
 
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