Collecting advice & experience on polyamory

P.S.Eudonym · Mar 3, 2011

This is a followup threat of my previous one, found here. This threat will assume that the information provided there is known.

So, apparently the situation is not as over as I hoped or thought. After a while of "all good" we came to talking again last night. When I asked her about her day, she said that the coworker situation was giving her trouble. When I inquired further, she basically told me that she is beginning to realize that she feels more for him than just a friend and appartently he is "confused" as well. (Im not entirely sure wether that means he lied to my face, but I will get to the bottom of that soon enough.)
After some talking she ensured me that she does not with to end our relationship and she also does not wish to cheat on me, but the situation is giving her trouble. Ultimately, she is hoping for a situation in which she can have both with me beeing cool with it. She has assured me that she is not going to make a move without my consent (as usual, in the sense that I am fine with it emotionally) but the situation is creating quite some turmoil for the both of us.

So, here I am again. I had an extended lunch break which I spend talking to an old friend about the situation and we both more or less arrived at the same conclusion. I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can either deny my consent and maintain our relationship, hoping it will last and be enough for her, or I can give the thing a shot and risk all falling apart. (Technically, I could pack up my things, but I don't want that, so thats not on the table.) Basically, it seems that the choice has been made on her side and I have to find a way to deal with it. Can't say I didn't see this comming to be honest.

So, now I am looking for input. I have met a couple of people in love triangles (never been there myself yet) and no matter whom I talk to they all tell me the same thing: under the surface it was always a turf war. Not a single person I know seems to have made it work for an extended period of time, not outside the bedroom anyways. Yet, both of them and multiple sources on the internet seem to claim the opposite and its not like the concept is new at all, so I guess there must have been and be people who manage to do it. Does anyone here have any experience with this sort of thing? How do you deal with the jealousy and the exlusivity drive and how did/ does it turn out?

I have contemplated to jump into the cold water and, after defining some rules and limits, to place the three of us in a sexual threesome to give the situation an honest shot. I don't mind naked men as long as the focus is on her and I don't think I would mind him. What I am affraid of, is that with this course I run the risk to spark a fire that could spell the end of my engagement, but on the other hand, it also provides the opportunity to eliminate the "what if" magic for the two of them and wake them up to what I hope to be an exclusive future between me an my fiancé. Finally, if they both turn out to like it and I don't, I am no worse off than I am now, so it seems like a 2:1 situation.
I considered looking for a different additional partner, but I have a feeling that this guy is at the core of things and unless that barrier of possibilities is cast down I am merely working towards the (prolonged) end of my relationship because the tension does not seem to ebb away. Thoughts?

As always, your input is greatly appreciated.

sebastian · Mar 3, 2011

Sorry to hear that things have gotten messy, but at least your fiance is being very honest. My ex-husband just cheated on me when he was unhappy and let me go on thinking things were fine.

Open relationships can work. I know both gay and straight couples who have done it. Gay men seem to have an easier time making it work, but straights can do it as well. However, most of the open relationships I have known have either fallen apart or been relationships that I personally didn't think were healthy. But that doesn't mean that they can't work, only that they are very hard. And in all fairness, traditional closed relationships also fall apart fairly frequently, often because one person steps outside. So the lesson is that relationships of all sorts are very difficult to make work long-term.

Your fiance is crushing on this other guy. It's probably not love, but her feelings for him still have enormous potential to be disruptive to your relationship. Refusing to open the relationship up is probably the best way to nip this in the bud; if she remains faithful to you she will probably get over this guy eventually, but it will be uncomfortable for her, and you will have to make clear to her that you acknowledge what she is giving up and that you appreciate it. But if she breaks down and cheats, things will get very ugly and it will probably be the end of your relationship with her.

If, on the other hand you decide to let her have her fling, either with or without you, two things are possible. 1) She plays with this guy and gets him out of her system, realizes you're really the guy for her, and it strengthens the relationship in the long run. 2) She plays with this guy, really sparks with him, and starts to doubt her feelings for you. Option 2 probably kills your relationship in the long run.

So either keeping things closed or opening them up creates a risk that her feelings for this guy will grow into a serious problem. But, in my opinion and not actually knowing her at all, I think opening the relationship up at this point is the greater risk. I think in this situation it's gonna be like pouring kerosine on a smoldering fire.

The open relationships that I've seen that seem to work best are ones with clear rules and where both partners are mature enough to be extremely honest and stick to the rules no matter what. The two of you work out in advance how much disclosure is required (does she tell you she played? does she tell you with whom? does she give you details if you ask?), when it's allowed (does she tell you in advance? does she have to get permission? can you veto her choice of guys? once she's played once, does she have to wait until you've played before she can do it again? do you only play together? only separately?), and what's permitted (oral sex? anal sex? vaginal sex? bdsm sex but no penetration? does he have to get tested first? does he have to use a condom--highly recommended).

Open relationships work best when the people involved are looking for fun, but not for emotional satisfaction. A long-term couple can open up a relationship to provide novelty and to allow the partners to explore things that one person wants but the other can't or won't provide (I want to do bdsm but my partner is vanilla or I want to suck cock and my partner is a woman). But that's not the situation here. Your gf is torn between two guys that she is attracted to and is hoping to work out an arrangement that lets her eat her cake and have it too. She doesn't want to have to choose. That's a bad sign in my book. For some reason this guy is offering her the prospect of something she's not finding with you, even if she doesn't know what. The more I think about it, the more I think that letting her play with him is a recipe for a break up. It's not a question of you trusting her to come back to you.

You might suggest trying a three-way with some other guy and seeing if she finds that enjoyable. My guess is that she'll say she's not interested in other guys in general, just this guy. In that case, you know it's not just sex or exploring that she wants; rather she's trying to satisfy her feelings for this guy. I think if you refuse to open the relationship up, she will eventually work through her feelings for him and fully commit to you emotionally. But there's no guarantee here. It's possible that she's having second feelings about marrying you and this is the way it's manifesting.

P.S.Eudonym · Mar 3, 2011

Im in a hurry here, so I'll adress most of your post later, but I want to add this piece of info real quick since it really should have been in the original post.

You might suggest trying a three-way with some other guy and seeing if she finds that enjoyable. My guess is that she'll say she's not interested in other guys in general, just this guy.

Actually this has come up way before the whole coworker incident. She is bi and has been open about that since we first met and had a somewhat fling with another woman while we were first dating. That woman was in a commited relationship as well, I met her significant other and liked him well enough. Since she and my fiancÃ© kept it strictly sexual (and mostly to kissing and some groping) neither of us did mind. It somewhat turned me on to be honest.
I didn't even remember that anymore until you questioned her desire for a threesome in general. Interesting.

She also confessed she had the hots for some of my friends before, but we never made a move in either direction (male or female) since that original fling. The topic came up every once in a while, but we never gave it much thought. At least not enough for it to become an issue. But then, our sexlife was somewhat slow for quite some time, partially due to her reacting to her chosen method of birth control in a way that killed her sex drive. (Appartently this is quite common. Who would've guessed. Solved for about 9 month or so now, by switching to another method though.)
I actually told one of my friends about this, but he is somewhat insecure when it comes to men, so he's not interested. It never went beyond that beating around the bush and since I didn't want to pressure her I felt it was for her to make a move if she wanted it.

P.S.Eudonym · Mar 3, 2011

All right, I have some more time now. I should say that some of this is planning ahead. The situation is there but she promised to respect my feelings in it, which means she basically agreed to not make a move of any kind. I have told her, and mean it, that I am fresh out of breaks. I forgave her cheating once, I will not do so again. Especially not with the same guy.

However, I know that she is not happy with the situation and I know that her unhappyness will seek a vent sooner or later. When it does, the issue will resurface and I'd rather be prepared. Last time I was steamrolled by the two of them, this is not going to happen again if I can help it.

Opening the relationship is out of the question for me. I have begun to read up on polygamy and talked to friends about it, but it simply does not compute to me. This is partially due to the inconsitencies in the reasoning presented (i.e. first love is presented as something that is always the same with no difference between the love for a child and the love for a wife for example, but later on, each love is individual and distinctions are made.) Frankly, a lot of it is apples and oranges to me. Sure I do love multiple people equally, my siblings and parents for instance, but there is a huge difference in the love I feel for them or my niece and the love I feel for my fiancÃ©.
And frankly, if I ever considered a love triangle it would be with a person I feel close to on an emotional level. I cannot even begin to describe how that does not apply to this guy.

The reason I was asking for polyamory experiences is that while my fiancÃ© desribes her emotions as something that does fit the definition, I have a growing feeling that this is not what she wants or means but rather a term I slapped onto it because I could/ can not understand what she is trying to tell me. Given actual examples, I could have more specific discussions with her and maybe figure out what it is she wants. But maybe, this is too abstract an approach, so here are two examples of situations she seemed to like the idea of:

1.) This one originated in her head. Basically the idea that spawned this was my original refusal to enter the BDSM world, but the concept persists despite me changing my mind and entering. Essentially, she envisons a situation where I am at home, comfortable, maybe watching the kids or just reading a book, while she is out with her coworker and maybe other guys and "gets her playing fix". In her mind, she would return to me satisfied and we would both be happy with that.
2.) This is from a TV series she saw. This series presented a love triangle of a man and two women, complete with children and the works. What it boils down to is that the man and one of the woman worked while the second woman stayed at home running the household and watching the kids. The advantage of this was that when one of the partners returned home too tired to pay attention to the other sexually, there was still another one available. According to her, this "seems nice" and she could imagine us living like that.

While both of these examples describe our relationship in an emotionally open way and either requires a lot of trust and comitment, the key point of both is sexual satisfaction. More specifically, her sexual satisfaction. this coupled with the fact that in the past she has always made a point of "marking her territory" when we were in public and women paid attention to me plus the whole coworker situation, leads me to the conclusion that the whole "loving multiple people equally" aspect is a veil that masks the fact that in reality it is about sexual satisfaction. Now, I believe this is happening subconciously and that her reasoning is that she wants to respect my boundaries (after all, I have shot down quite a few of her ideas, simply because some of them disgust me to be honest) and that in a world in which she could have partners apart from me with my consent, she could, as Sebastian put it, eat her cake and have it too.
The problem is, this is all fine and analyticaly sound, but in reality I don't know if this is really the case or if this is my brain trying to reason my way out of it. After all, if I am right and she realizes its really sex she is after, I am relatively sure she would not like that realization. She is prone to playing hard and fast and losing interest once she has either exhausted herself or come to a point where she doesn't like what is going on anymore.

This is, partially, why I am contemplating of letting her have her way in this once, with the specific limitations that I am a part of it, that nothing happens before everyone gets tested, that condoms are used at all times and that it happens on my terms alone. I am, I guess, hoping that she ultimately realizes that its not love but sex that she is after with this guy and I know that love plays a much bigger role to her than sex does. However, as you correctly pointed out, this idea is prone to backfire.

Ultimately, I am at the concept stage here. I am playing around with ideas, trying them on for size basically, to solve this dilema. For the time being, she has vowed fidelity and I am going to hold her to this vow. Of course, she can always change her mind, but we exhausted the topic on the consequences of that and I don't think we wants to face them.

A bit off topic, but I just need to write this down: what really pisses me off is the guilt transfer in all this. Some of her lady friends, women that should really know me better, got it in their (and partially) her head, that I am the bad guy for not beeing cool with her doing whatever she wants with this guy. Apparently, the fact that I told her that the two of us are over if she keeps it up because I couldn't deal with it, is essentially equal to giving her an ultimatum to choose between the two of us and not a statement about emotional capability. Feel free to flame me or disagree with me on this, but what the fuck? How is being unable to deal with your fiancÃ© effectively cheating on you being unfair and restricting? When did choice and consequence turn into "I do whatever I fuckin want and if you dont like it you're the bad guy because you're holding me back"?
Now, to make this clear, I dont think that is her mindset exactly, though it does feel like it sometimes lately, but the fact that women whom I know and who should know me could ever think this way simply blows my mind.

Allright, I am clearly ranting now, so I'd better stop and divert myself a little. Stay safe everyone.

sebastian · Mar 4, 2011

PS, the most important precondition for any sort of open or polyamorous relationship is that all those involved be emotionally ready and basically comfortable with it (although obviously some participants might be nervous at the start). You are clearly not comfortable with opening your relationship up at this point, so doing so will be disastrous. Even in BDSM relationships, there is absolutely no obligation that either dom or sub must accept an open relationship; in fact most BDSM relationships are probably closed relationships between partners. Remember, BDSM is consensual, so if one partner does not consent, it is not BDSM but abuse. Your fiance does not have the right to insist that you let her play with someone else (and her friends sure as hell don't have that right). Of course, she does have the right to say that she wants to break up with you and be with this other guy. BDSM is built on a foundation of trust; if for whatever reason you are unable to muster the trust that she will come back to you, there is no reason that you should give permission. It's essentially like a sub being asked to do some sort of edge play, like cutting or breath control; if the sub cannot muster the trust, the dom cannot require it. And even if the dom has consistently demonstrated trustworthiness, the sub may simply be too nervous about being bled, so that lack of trust is not a sign that one partner suspects the other; rather it's a sign that emotionally that partner isn't capable of doing what's being asked.

Luna · Mar 4, 2011

PS- I don't know if anything I say will help but I will say it anyway.

I have two lovers. Each is aware of the other however I keep those relationships separate.
I don't discuss with one what goes on with the other.
I don't judge one against the other.
Each of them is different and I get something different from each of them, something I need.
Both however live some distance away so maybe that makes it easier, but, not really. It is not easy to have two relationships going, to keep them separate, yet provide each with equal time, affection.
You're relationship is much more committed, and supposedly so is this co-worker of hers. My instinct tells me that although she's being honest with you about what it is she wants, you're unwillingness to accept this and give consent, she will pursue it anyway. Personally, I live buy the rule that you don't fish off the company pier because it only creates problems in a work environment.

What you are describing, or what she is describing, sounds very selfish. If you turned to her and expressed a desire to carry on a sexual relationship with another woman, how would she react? If she's ok with it, is it because she loves you and appreciates that maybe you have needs that she cannot/does not fulfill? By seeking out another partner to fulfill that need will it strengthen your relationship? Or is she ok with it because she really doesn't care. Or maybe she's not sure in her heart that she belongs with you.
Might I suggest that if there is a next meeting between you, and her, and this co-worker ... suggest he bring his fiance, because I'm willing to bet she is unaware of this entire situation.
It sounds more to me as though she wants the best of both worlds.

my two cents

Nuka · Mar 4, 2011

I agree with Luna, get all four to meet...

Perhaps she just has a thing for threesomes, at least on a mental level. Not really minding which gender it happens to be with, but she needs that kind of fullfillment maybe?

Is she quite an emotionally attached person? Or one who can (not meaning this badly) latch onto people easily and not let go until an alternative is presented?

P.S.Eudonym · Mar 6, 2011

A quick update: Things are looking up and we are making progress. Quite frankly, I have no idea how to even begin to write the events of the past days down, so I am going to take my time with it. I dont want to keep you guys in the dark, so let me just say that for the time being, life is good.

WrathofThor · Mar 6, 2011

Luna that's a great idea. Let's see how comfortable this "dom" is with the proposition of you fucking HIS woman. Anyways, glad things are getting better and at least your fiance is being honest.

Do you two live together? Curious because if this sort of thing stays a problem you might want to suggest that she go get her kinks worked out before deciding to commit to a monogamous relationship - that is what being engaged is, isn't it? (or is that too old-fashioned?

). Sounds like she's shitting where she eats and burning her bridges at the same time, and if she's having these conflicts before you're even married statistics and human nature point to the fact that it only gets worse over time.

As for the guilt-tripping: those girls sound like spoon-fed cunts that pander to their girlfriend's desires without any regard or consideration for human emotion. They need a big middle finger shoved up the ass until they understand what it means to be a fucking human being.

From a rationalize point of view I'd like to point out that in automatically discounting the option of walking out on your relationship you have just thrown away your bargaining tools and practically placed your well-being at the hands of this woman and her sexual desire roller-coaster. That's YOURSELF and your integrity as a man, and I believe she needs to know and feel that she's lucky to have you and if she keeps this shit up she will fucking lose what is most likely the best thing to happen to her in her entire life.

That's all I have to say. Good luck! Glad things are going well.

Kor · Mar 7, 2011

The only long term polyamorous situations I've seen were dom/switch/sub or dom/sub/servant. That is, where the two subs had substantially different dynamics with themselves and their dominant. So far, I haven't seen any "equal subs" situations work out very long.

Collecting advice & experience on polyamory

P.S.Eudonym

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sebastian

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