Seeking advice on how to handle my fiancé's newfound desires.

Discussion in 'General BDSM discussions' started by P.S.Eudonym, Feb 15, 2011.

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  1. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    Hello Folks,
    this will be a long post, so please bear with me. I am in desperate need of advice and insight. Therefore, thanks in advance to everyone who takes the time to read and respond to this. Furthermore, I would like to apologize in advance if my phrasing or choice of words or the concepts contained therein are perceived as offensive. It is not my intent to offend, but to understand concepts I am currently being confronted with. If my lack of knowledge and understanding seems offensive, please enlighten me to my errors.

    First, about myself: I have strong moral convictions, among them the credo that violence is never an appropriate means and that hurting people is plain wrong. I'm not a pacifist and I realize that violence is sometimes necessary, but it should be a last resort.

    Despite this, I have always had an interest in pain and dominance, the giving not the receiving. However, with a few rare exceptions, this has always been limited to fantasies. I have had a few sexual encounters that would probably technically be part of the BDSM scene, but for the most part I prefer, for want of a better word, "normal" sex. I have had a few encounters with individuals who tried to introduce me to the scene, but most things I saw there either outright scared me or simply turned me off.

    To clarify, I enjoy the occasional bondage game, I don't mind giving out a couple of spanks and I enjoy dirty talk, but I am not into the harder stuff like torture, latex, candle wax etc. Pictures or Videos of this has occasionally turned me on, but for the most part, it's a downer for me. I'd like to emphasize the fact that this is a simple issue of what gets me hard and what doesn't. In terms of tolerance, I don't care what people do behind closed doors as long as its consentual. Anyway, on to the actual problem.

    A week ago, my fiancé jumped me and asked me to hit her. Since I was in the mood I obliged her and enjoyed the encounter for a while, but once she asked me to hit her in the face and suffocate her I couldn't deal. Plain and simple, it went too far. She accepted that and things went on.
    Later that evening she told me that she had discovered herself to be a submissive. Basically she had her coming out, which I would like to state is a great thing. I enjoy seeing her as lively as she has become and I truly am happy for her. For me however, the situation has caused a couple of problems, some of which I currently feel uninformed to deal with properly.

    To elaborate, in the beginning of our relationship I felt she might be into BDSM or at least rough sex and for a while we experimented. She seemed to enjoy it initially, but after a while she seemed less and less comfortable and after a long talk she told me that she did not want to experiment anymore. Since I did and do not want to force her into anything, we agreed and my desires went back to fantasies, which I was and am fine with.
    One might think that everything is just dandy, seeing as I have desires in that direction and she has rediscovered her sexuality and our desires seem to match, but the reality of it is quite different. This will require a little chronology and patience, so once again, please bear with me:



    Her coming out was brought about by a new coworker of hers, who, like me in the beginning of our relationship sensed her interests, but unlike me was both versed and experienced in the scene and was actually able to bring about her self-discovery.

    Now, my fiancé is a bit of a tease and she simply enjoys playful banter. It gets her confidence up, makes her feel good and basically makes her happy. This I never minded. A week before her coming out, she started to tell me that a coworker of hers was teasing her similarly to her own habits, but since he was aware of my existence and I trust her I didn't mind much. At some point in this back and forth of harmless teasing, they discovered her interests and her coming out came about. Apparently he is quite versed in the scene, a self proclaimed dominant with several female "toys" as he calls them at this disposal and the experience to match. So far so good, but then they started to experiment.

    This is where my problems and the contradictions begin and my understanding ends. It is important to note that her definitions and terminology come straight from her coworker since he is her only source of information and she is somewhat prone to parrot things back when they make sense to her. She's capable of critical thinking, she simply sometimes chooses not to employ it.

    According to her, their experiments have been strictly non sexual and non intimate. What she means by this, is that he touched her, with her consent, in varying degrees of application of force. The pain caused by this aroused her and she enjoyed it. Now, I maybe old fashioned but I like to call a spade a spade. When a man touches a woman's upper thigh and she is aroused by the touch, that's an intimate encounter to me.
    Yet, the both of them persist that intimacy and sexuality, both defining characteristics of faithfulness to me, play no role at all. In one discussion with him he told me that to him, sex is the actual act of penetration while everything else is fun and games. She seems to share this mindset. Partially because of this, all this happened before she told me of her coming out and my opinion or "consent" (this will make more sense later) were never asked for.
    As if the above was not conflict enough, my fiancé told me that she wanted to enter a dominant/ submissive relationship with her coworker. Strictly non sexual and non intimate, simply "playing" as she called it. She suggested a few rules to be set and basically asked for my "consent" (In the sense that she wants me to be comfortable with the concept). Again, allow me illustrate my dilemma here. She basically wants to become one of his "toys" to be played with at his leisure (assuming her consent on a per game basis) and claims this is neither intimate nor sexual. No matter which way she puts it and no matter how I turn it, all I hear and understand is: "I want to have an intimate relationship, in order to experiment within my newfound sexuality, with another man." Apparently, he even suggested a three-way, graciously ensuring her to grant me the lead as he does not mind to be submissive every once in awhile, before we even ever met or I was even aware of the whole thing.

    I digress, the day after she told me of her coming out and jumped me, despite my intentions, I met the man when I picked her up from work. They had been working late and she asked me if we could either drop him off or if we wanted to go for a drink since his next bus was scheduled for an hour later. Not wanting to be an ass and seeing her pleading looks, I agreed to go for a drink.
    My perception may be flawed, but I feel I tried to be friendly and I tried to get to know him. He was new in town so I told him some local trivia while we were driving and later politely asked how he came to be into town, about his career and the like. I honestly wanted to understand the man in front of me. He obliged me somewhat, politely answering my questions but volunteering little information and despite my initial statement that I would prefer not to talk about "the issue" tonight he kept coming back to the topic. I realize that I sometimes am not easy to get along with and I guess I could have been friendlier and he probably sensed my reluctance, but all I got from him the entire evening was the picture of a person who does not care one bit to get to know me and only cares about getting my "consent" so he can go on with what he really wants: to have a dominator/ submissive relationship with my fiancé. He did not fill my polite pauses for replies or counter questions, he never once asked me a single question about myself, my interests or my work and he never inquired to my well-being or even tried to make me feel comfortable. When we dropped him off, he did not shake my hand, but grabbed my fiancé by her scarf tightly while looking at her with cold eyes as if giving a silent order. She did not seem to mind. I did. At the very least, it was disrespectful.

    After we had dropped him off, I told my fiancé that I did not trust him and did not feel comfortable with the whole concept. I elaborated that he did not seem to show any interest in building trust or a friendship but simply seemed to view me as an obstacle towards his goal. Furthermore I informed her that his eyes give me the creeps and that I had a bad feeling about the whole thing. She seemed downcast and sad, but accepted my decision and told me that she would break it off. Seeing her this sad broke my heart, leading to me lying awake almost the entire night, mulling the thing over in my head.

    The next morning, I had come to the decision that while I did and do not trust him, I trust her and that she deserved the right to make up her own mind. Therefore, I devised a couple of, rather restrictive, rules to ensure her safety and to put my mind at ease and told her that as long as they both agreed to and followed these rules, I was willing to give him and their experiments a chance. She was overjoyed and agreed to the rules, seeing them as sensible mostly, and agreed to inform him of my decision. During the day, she called me and told me that he had agreed to the rules but wanted to meet me again to "clear up some of my misconceptions". Reluctant to place myself in his presence again so soon, I told her that I would think it over. In the evening, against my better judgment, I decided that everyone deserves a second chance and agreed to meet them after we all had finished work.
     
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  2. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    Now, I am a person who does not worry easily, but that evening, the two of them almost killed me with it. One of the rules, one I had placed special emphasis on, was that I wanted to be informed before and whenever the two of them changed location together. Basically I wanted to make sure that I know where she is when they play, so I could be there if she needed me. I had told them that I could not get away before eight and that we would meet at nine at a specific public place. They had finished work at eight as well, but had less of a distance, so they should have arrived half an hour ahead of me. When I arrived they weren't there. Figuring that maybe they got delayed in traffic I tried to call them. She had forgotten her cell phone that day, but I had his gotten number from when she called me earlier, so I called him. The call went directly to voicemail. I tried again and again and it always went directly to voicemail. Somewhat worried, I send them a text asking them to call me and tell me where they are but got no reply. I went to the building security which was directly next to the entrance and had a guard watching the area at all times to ask if they had seen them and was informed that they hadn't. Positively sick with worry and anger now I called them again and again but always went directly to voicemail. Between two calls, a good 20 minutes after the agreed on time, my phone rang and my fiancé told me that they had just parked the car. Shortly after, to my relief, we met and they told me that they had decided to stay longer at the office due to the weather and then had misjudged traffic. His phone was apparently offline because they had plugged it into the MP3 player of the car for music.
    I may have overreacted at this point, but I love this woman more than my life and I do not trust him one bit. Knowing her somewhere with him, with no way to contact her, the assumption that she would arrive before me and security oblivious to her existence, I was literally shaking with ill-contained fear for her rage towards him. I wanted to leave immediately with her, but her pleading looks led to me again, against my better judgment, deciding to stay for a talk. We went to nearby bar and ordered drinks.

    There I told him to the face that I did not know him and therefore did not trust him. I told him that he had now twice given me reason to doubt his honestly, either through negligence or intention, I did not care which, and that he better start making sense and showing an effort. After that, I buried myself in a salad so I could not interrupt him and started listening. He tried to explain his desires, how playing was neither sexual nor intimate to him and how sex did not matter, but frankly, all I heard was "bla bla bla, you don't know the scene, therefore you do not understand me and because of that this is all pointless anyway. Just give me your permission so we can all be on our way." Yes, I am probably being unfair, but for a man who had asked for this meeting to clear up misconceptions he was annoyingly unspecific and vague. He also gave me a somewhat chronological run of the events that had taken place before I was informed of her coming out, which seemed to mostly resonate with what my fiancé had told me, at my request. This allowed me to arrive at some conclusions, leading to the following:
    At some point I got fed up and told him that I used to be part of the scene and that he should stop bullshitting me. To be honest, I exaggerated, I attended a BDSM party once and left rather quickly and I have a couple of friends who are into the scene and tried to introduce me a couple of times, unsuccessfully. For some of them being part of the scene ended badly, two of them ending up with borderline auto-aggressive disorders. (granted, those where probably present prior and not caused by it, but the scene was not healthy for them none the less) I also told him that amongst all my friends and everything that I had read about the topic (in an attempt to understand an classify my own urges and desires), there was one rule that was always mentioned, which is: that no action at all should be taken unless all involved parties, especially fiancés or partners, were both informed of and comfortable with the situation. (Which frankly, seems very common sense to me. There are less tolerant and friendly guys out there, some of which are outright deadly when you touch their girl, let alone hurt her, even if she wants it.) Given his chronological outline, he had violated that rule and I wanted to know whether this had been an oversight (which I find extremely unlikely) or intentional.

    He was somewhat taken aback by my accusation and began several explanations, all of which boiled down to either: "Your fiancé wanted it" or "We'll it sort of happened" . Eventually he conceded that he owed me an apology, but was still unable to give me a straight answer as to whether it was intentional or not. Once again, fed up with his excuses and barely able to constrain myself from jumping over the table and beating him to a bloody pulp, I excused myself to the bathroom to think. (To put this in perspective, that was the first time in over a decade that I felt the urge to physically assault another human being.)
    After a while, I went back to the table. The way he had looked at me when he offered me his apology was the first time I actually saw a hint of emotion in him and I felt I might have broken through to him. Still not comfortable with the whole situation, I truly wanted my fiancé to be happy, so I asked them for a two week break before the games continue (and reserved the right to change my mind) but told them that after that, it would be ok, given the rules we had already set and a few additions, such as that she has to have her cell phone on her at all times. They both agreed and we went home.

    The next day, I again spend thinking and contemplating the situation and eventually concluded that as much as I want her to be happy and as much as I want to trust her, I simply was not comfortable with the situation and couldn't deal with it. At that point, I was ready to break off the engagement should she decide that she wants to place her exploration of her sexuality before our relationship, just to make the pain go away. Through the fog of my fear, I told myself that if she ultimately wants this more than our relationship, then I have no right to stand in her way. I told her this, along with all my doubts, fears and frustrations that very evening and asked her to break it off with him. In the course of the conversation, she informed me that he had broken it off that very day, claiming he did not want to come between us and that he felt bad for having done so and that she valued her so highly that he preferred losing a toy to losing their friendship. (Plus putting on the waterworks that he felt so bad that he was unable to play and called of his plans for some BDSM event for the weekend, but frankly, I have a hard time emphasizing with him.)

    Over the following weekend we talked a lot and experimented a bit and I tried to give her want she wants, but the truth is that her desires are more extreme and go deeper than my ability to fulfill them, at this point in time. I might be getting into it, the tendencies seem to be there, but there are mental barriers that I feel neither comfortable nor are easy to break down or let go off. As mentioned before, things like hitting in the face are something that I simply can't do currently. (And frankly, I still consider this a good thing for what that's worth.)

    That's the story so far, now for the actual things I need help with. I have a couple of problems with the situation.

    First, my own ideas of intimacy and sexuality are quite different from the picture the two of them paint, my fiancé, in parts at least, only recently so. To me, intimacy and sexuality are to be shared among partners only. I don't mind if my girlfriend hugs another man, or kisses a friend on the cheek or gives him/her a backrub when they need it. I don't care when she wears a short skirt and men whistle after her and I never felt threatened when a man approached or tried to flirt with her. She is a very friendly woman and I never had a problem with that. However, arousing another intentionally via action, that's intimacy to be shared in a relationship.
    Similarly, the whole dominance game is a strictly sexual thing to me. The notion arouses me, gets me in the mood and makes me lust for an actual sexual encounter. Everyone I have talked to, some active BDSM people, basically say the same thing. The concept that two people play a dominance game that is neither sexual nor intimate simply does not compute for me. No matter which way I turn it, I always end up with the fact that whatever happens, simple orders, touching or actual sex, arousal is a result of the actions, defying the notion that it could be non sexual or non intimate.

    Secondly, I feel betrayed. My fiancé should know me well enough to understand that I would want to be aware of her having these games before she has them, and he should know that starting to play like they did, touching and arousing her, should not happen before they are sure her fiancé is cool with it. As I said, I don't care about touching in general, but I trusted her that our intimacy was exclusive and now she tries to sell me the concept that my perception does not count because in hers they weren't doing anything sexual or intimate. They both adamantly persist that my perception of intimacy and sexuality is simply too broad and that I should adopt theirs. They are oblivious to the fact that most of society seems to share my definition. They claim to understand my problem intellectually, but emotionally it does not make sense to them, or so they claim. I cannot help but feel that this definition is all to convenient to mask a guilty concience.
     
  3. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    Thirdly, what I cannot wrap my head around is the fact that she wants to experiment with him over me in the first place. We experimented together when our relationship started and she ended it, knowing that I was into it, within limits. Several years later this guy comes along and all of a sudden she is into it (that much I get, discovering yourself sometimes takes time or key events), but does not want to figure it out within our relationship but instead with a nearly total stranger who claims to have the advantage of experience. (Note: She seems to feel like she has known him for years, but in reality they have known each other for three weeks at the most. Also neither of us has met any of his friends or toys, so for all I know he could be lying or exagerating.) I have displayed my willingness, to try and adapt, told her that I was willing to see where it takes us and have gone beyond limits I have never been beyond before since she told me of her coming out. Still she does not seem satisfied with that and is, subtly but persistently, nurturing the hope and agenda that her coworker and I sort things out and things come to the point where I am comfortable with her being his toy. Frankly, this bruises my ego something fierce. She claims that this is because she knows I am not able to go far enough and that she wants to respect my boundaries in this, but frankly, that does not compute either.

    Fourth, the egocentric way she displays in the whole issue. This worries me particularly because she normally isn't like that. Listening to her, the whole thing failed to work because of my inability to get to know her coworker, his mistake to break the rule to include me first and my insecurities regarding the issue. The fact that she made the choice not to tell me right away, gave her consent and participated in the game before she informed me of her coming out or even the notion of the game and the fact that the who of them simply steamrolled me with the issue, placing a full blown situation in front me and then asking my consent with barely any time to think at all seems oblivious to her. When I pointed them out she basically told me that it was true, but did not comment any further and insisted that it was all down to my misconceptions about intimacy and sexuality as outlined above.

    Fifth and finally, and this is the bomb, the way he "broke off", claiming that she means to much to him to lose as a friend and that he'd rather forfeit a toy than lose her altogether. The way he basically ignored me, did not meet my gaze and looked at her had already given me the idea that he might have, or be in the process of falling in love with her, but that basically sold me on the idea. Logically, and by all the assurances of my fiancé this should not worry me, but the truth is that it does. Again, this has happened before and I never felt threatened, always trusting in our love and devotion for each other, I felt no fear. But now, with all that has happened, I cannot help but wonder what happens when I realize that I really am unable to fulfill her desires and give her what she wants? In the rest of the relationship, she seems happy, but since her coming out, sexuality has taken a priority it never before had for her. Knowing that and my own reservations towards BDSM despite my existing urges makes me worry.

    I realize that it is quite possible that I am, in fact, repressing my urges and that my take on morality and social life may be blocking what could truly lie underneath. This is something that I am working on to figure out, but it is also something that will take time, a luxury which I feel I currently do not have in abundance. For the time being, they have agreed to confine their social relationship to the workplace for the coming two weeks and have broken off their games for my sake, but I am doubtful whether this cease fire will last.
    Therefore, I am looking for opinions. Given the information above, were my reactions appropriate? Is my view on intimacy and sexuality truly to broad in the context of the BDSM sexuality? Does anyone have any advice or experience to share on how to deal with the situation, how to figure out how far I can go and how to figure out how to deal with my fiancé in all this without losing her? Any input is greatly appreciated.

    Congratulate to everyone who made it this far. :)

    tl/dr version:
    nothing to see here, move along.
     
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  4. sillylittlepet

    sillylittlepet Active Member

    wow whoa okay, the was the longest thing ever

    First, please please please please read the FAQ. There's a lot there dealing with "nice guys" becoming doms. Carefully read the entire thread as it is specifically geared toward educating newcomers and some of the posts are really amazing. This will help you get a better understand of what BDSM is and isnt.

    Second, you and your fiancé should have more discussions. Make sure they are very open and non-confrontational. Not "why dont you understand me" or "why are you acting like this". If it helps, write down CLEARLY what your feelings are and why. If you're not comfortable with her playing this guy then you are completely entitled to those feelings. CLEARLY explain to her why your feelings are hurt when she wants to experiment with him instead of you and again, DONT PLACE BLAME.
    Sex and sexuality are important topics for couples, especially since you're planning on making a formal commitment to each other. You need to decide, as a couple, what is okay and what is not. Don't let her bully you into agreeing with something you aren't fully on board with but at the same time don't smother your opinion onto her. Do make compromises and agreements that benefit both of you and make your relationship stronger

    Third, just because you don't have much experience now doesnt mean you can never dom. Its not fair for her to expect you to be the perfect dom right away, just like it wouldn't be fair for you to expect her to be a perfect sub right away. Part of the joy of BDSM is the way couples get to learn about themselves and how to be better doms/subs while learning more about their partner. Personally, I find it an incredible bonding experience! It might be fruitful to convince your fiancé another chance in playing with you

    Fourth, re-read the FAQ with your fiancé and have another discussion!!

    Hopefully your fiancé will respect that you're not comfortable with her interaction with this guy.
    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  5. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to read my posts and for your reply. It is very much appreciated.

    I have read the FAQ in its entirety and have exhausted most of the content of the xeromag.com link in one of the earlier posts (yours). However, I must admit I partially fell into the "my problems are too important to spend time reading FAQs" trap, and for that I apologize. I did read up on the topic before, but in retrospective it seems most of that information was restricted to either the outer layer of BDSM or the pure analytic psychology of it and thus gave an incomplete picture.
    The more I read, the more I get the idea that this guy is a lot less experienced than he claims to be. In the light of the heavy emphasis on trust, communication, safety and taking it slow compared to them experimenting in the workplace without my knowledge, he seems a lot less organized and controlled than they make him out to be. Feel free to point out if I am missing something here and his behaviour actually suggests something else that I do not understand yet.

    I guess I have a lot more reading and learning to do before I come to terms with the whole deal, but I have to admit, having written it down and wetting my feet in the subject matter from a non scientific perspective has helped already. I will, for the time being, maintain my stance that I do not want her to experiment outside our relationship and I will do my best not to place blame. Above all, I will try to take it slow and hope that she is willing to allow me the time I need. I have to admit I still feel steamrolled, but my own actions could have been more appropriate and understanding I guess.

    I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the non intimacy non sexual issue, but having read the section on polyamory and control play as a precursor to actual encounters, it makes a little more sense than it did before. Why she would play with him to get charged if they both know (and stated) that sex is completely out of the question still boggles my mind, but I guess it could be akin to a "getting appetite - look don't touch" sort of arrangement like we had prior to this situation. I'd apreciate input or experiences on this issue if anyone would like to share them.

    Having reread my original post again, I have found a couple of misconceptions of my own that have tainted the issue, most prominent the BDSM vs Good Guy thing, but given my emotionality and general confusion in the situation, I would like to politely ask everyone to point out what misconceptions they see in my post that I might have missed. So if anyone has the time and leisure to read or reread my post(s), I would greatly apreciate it.

    Also, I was wondering if anyone had any input on how to deal with the coworker situation in general. I have asked them to keep their contact to their friendship, but frankly I have my doubts wether he is healthy for her. (Not because of his sexuality but because of the way he went about things.) Normaly, I would never even consider to tell her whom to have contact with, but with him I am uncertain. Given my side of the story (I realize there is another side of course), how would you deal with it? Is asking them to keep it on a platonic level enough or should I consider asking her to keep it strictly professional in the workplace and to break contact entirely outside of it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
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  6. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    I'll be honest-- mostly stopped reading after the first post. But let me make a couple of points for you.

    1) BDSM is sex. I can have sex with a boy by twisting his nipples. Neither of us ever pulls a cock out and no genital contact happens, but it's still sex. So when this other dom pinches your finance's thigh, there is definitely something sexual happening. If she doesn't consent, it's called groping or 4th degree sexual assault, so if she does consent, it's voluntary sexual contact. You're not comfortable with her having that sort of contact with another man, so unless you've previously agreed that she gets to let other guys grope her when she wants it, I think you have grounds for telling her that she needs to stop with this guy.

    2) You feel that violence is almost always wrong, and I agree with you 100%. But BDSM is not violence. I would argue that violence is, more or less, non-consensual. When large numbers of guys chase each other around a field consensually, it's sports, not violence, and when a man slaps a woman consensually, it's BDSM, not violence. Nor would I say that hurting someone is always wrong, if by 'hurting' you mean 'inflicting pain'. Done within sports, it's an accepted risk of play; done by a doctor it may be an inevitable side effect of surgery; done within therapy, it may be healing; done within BDSM it can be delightful. All of these are consensual, which is what keeps BDSM from being domestic abuse. In contrast to hurting, harming (the infliction of physical or emotional injury) is never acceptable. BDSM seeks to inflict hurt without harm. Your gf wants pain; it arouses her and makes her feel submissive. So hitting her (in a safe way) is not violence; it's an expression of love and affection toward her, meant to meet her needs.

    3) Not all doms agree with everything posted in the FAQ (there is no issue on which absolutely all BDSMers completely agree), but I think most reasonable SSC ones would agree with most of it. Most competent experienced doms observe the practice that you do not play with another dom's sub without obtaining the other dom's permission. It's a matter of authority and control. A dom wants to have a substantial measure of authority and control over his subs, and having another dom 'play through' without permission violates that in a big way. To paraphrase an old saying, you don't rub another dom's rhubarb. Even if you're not an experienced dom, this other guy ought to have had a conversation with you in which he got your permission to play with her, even if it was in a supposedly non-sexual way. If he didn't, either your gf misrepresented herself as having permission or he's not a competent and experienced dom (meaning he either doesn't know he should be getting permission or that he's an asshole who doesn't respect other doms). The fact that he didn't observe your rule about keeping you informed points toward him being an asshole. You don't want your gf playing with an asshole. A real dom understands that when he has all of the control, he also has all of the responsibility, and therefore when something happens, he accepts responsibility for it. He doesn't say "things just happened"; he says "I did this, and I was responsible. I'm sorry that my actions caused a problem." An asshole tries to evade responsibility.

    4) Your gf is submissive; that means she responds when doms give her orders that she is expected to obey. (Control is different from pain play as an issue, so even if you don't like pain play because it feels like violence, you might learn to be as controlling as she wants). She's responding to this guy because he's giving her orders and expecting her to follow them. He may have ordered her to not tell you things. You've given her the freedom to make decisions because you trust her, but in this case that might be the wrong approach because A) she's submissive and therefore doesn't always want to make decisions; having decisions made for her feels right and B) that gives this guy an opportunity to step in and impose his will on her when you ought to be the one doing that.

    5) You are feeling unhappy with the dynamic in your relationship right now. That means there's a problem. Even if nothing is actually going on, you feel worried that something is going on. That gives you a reason to have a long talk with your gf and tell her that you're unhappy, you don't trust this other guy, and something needs to change.

    6) I think you have reason to be worried. I think your gf is cheating on you, at least emotionally and quite possibly sexually. As I said, BDSM is inherently sexual, so at a minimum, she is getting a sexual thrill from this guy, and that's going to make things difficult when you two get married. And I don't think that this guy is trustworthy. I think he's closer to being an abusive asshole than a real dom.

    7) So what to do? First, sit down with your gf and tell her that you find her playing with this other dom a serious problem. You don't like it and you want it to stop. Be firm. In both a vanilla relationship and a bdsm relationship you have a right to tell your partner that playing outside the relationship is unacceptable (of course, she has the right to demand outside play, and then the two of you have a serious problem to negotiate). I think if you just ignore this issue, the problem is going to get worse and possibly sink your relationship eventually.

    Second, explore the extent to which you enjoy being dominant. I think you have a dom side, so it's a question of learning what you like, how much you like it, and how to become adept at it. Nice guys can absolutely learn to dom their submissive partners. I'm a very nice guy, very sensitive to my boys' feelings and needs, and yet I've learned how to feed my sadistic side in a way that satisfies it, tortures my boys, and keeps things safe. You can too. If your gf wants to express her submissive side, you can probably learn to be the dom that she craves. Explain that it's gonna take time and practice for you to master the skills involved, and talk with her a lot about what she likes, what you can do better, and what you are and aren't willing to do.

    Third, if she wants some form of domination that you are unwilling or unable to give, negotiate with her about it. You might agree to let her play with another dom as long as she abides by whatever rules you both agree to. So you could insist that you meet with the other dom and find out exactly what he wants to do, that she call you when she arrives and when she leaves, and that you have a right to withdraw agreement if she breaks the rules or if you start getting uncomfortable. An open relationship is harder to manage than a BDSM one, though, so start with domming her yourself.
     
  7. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    Thank you for taking the time to read and answer Sebastian. Its a long story and I understand not reading it in its entirety.

    Your take on the events both reaffirms and alleviates some of my worries, but identifying the problem is the first step towards a solution, so this is a good thing.

    I see your point in one and two. The latter places a new perspective on things for me, beyond what the FAQ and other sources have managed. Especially the "hurting without harming" statement places things into context better than most abstract statements could before. For that, I wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    Number three is an interesting insight and different take on the whole triangle situation which I had not considered. In conjunction with number four and six, it is now clear to me that I need to confront him at least once more. The concept that he might have ordered her not to tell me things puts into question everything that has happened and every assumption I have made because I considered her trust above reproach.

    I will have a talk with her tonight or tomorrow, depending on how our work schedules allow this. Once again, thank all of you for your input and advice. It is greatly apreciated.
     
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  8. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    I'd start by talking to her, not him. Explain what you're concerned about, ask her to be very honest, and tell her that you want her to be your sub, not this other guy's. Once you've learned what she has to say, then think about confronting the other guy.
     
  9. sillylittlepet

    sillylittlepet Active Member

    Man why even talk to this guy

    talk to her, but he's not worth your time. Whats there to discuss with him?!
     
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  10. phillyskin

    phillyskin Member

    I have to agree with Sebastian and SLP. The probability of this guy being a complete asshole is quite high.

    Talk to her and figure out a viable dynamic for your relationship that doesn't involve this guy.

    Also, you're a far nicer guy than me (and I think I'M too nice). I'd have left her and punched him until I got pulled off of him.
     
  11. RosieA

    RosieA New Member

    I would agree with SLP and Phillyskin talking is the best option here.

    Is there perhaps a way to find starter kits? I'm interested into getting someone involved but he is always going overboard with new interests. And buys a ton of stuff we do not need for starters.

    A starter box/kit would help him out a bit. Any suggestions?
     
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  12. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    All right, here's an update. Last night we had a very long, exhausting talk, but things have gone back into motion.

    Yesterday was her girl's night out, so I had planned to await her at home with a little suprise to set the mood for our talk and give her an incentive to listen to me properly. Before that I was out shopping with a friend of mine who is also her best friend. He is into submissive BDSM, something I suspected (she had no clue) but neither of us knew until her coming out. While we were out she send him a text that she felt aweful and needed to talk to him. He did not inform me of this text, which is fine, he is her best friend after all. Later that night, while I was still out, he called me and informed me that she was at home terrified I might break off our relationship. So, instead of my well laid plans of preparation and suprise, I went home to her waiting for me.

    Once I arrived, we started talking. I patiently listened to her troubles involving her boss and how people started talking at the office and her fears that I might break it off.

    I proceded by giving her a little speech I had planned and prepared, which I would like your feedback on. The point of it was twofold: First I wanted to accept my position as her dominant which she had been asking me to, but I have been reluctant to do. Second, I wanted to place her into the mindset that my orders at any given time take precedence over any others, including those that might be violated by them or trigger conditions. By asserting that our sexuality is an integral part of us, regardless of wether it is overt or covert, I could consruct the point of view that we have been in this dynamic since we very beginning and that her coworker has interfered on it.

    I made sure that she understood the implications of my statement and that this was a requirement for both the talks and our relationship to continue. She displayed a bit of discomfort by the conviction and seriousness of my voice while I held the little speech, but stated that she agreed and understood both the statements and the implications and accepted them.

    After that, we had a long talk in which I told her that I felt that under my definition of intimacy and sex (the later quoted directly from Sebastians post), I had to conclude that she had cheated on me. This is something she is scared of because she knows I ended my last relationship because of this. (She was also a bit pissed because a year ago I had an "almost" moment with my best lady friend. I told her about this before and she didn't mind, but yesterday felt like maybe she should.) I also told her that I understood the turmoil of her coming out and that I was willing to forgive her the transgretions, provided we come to mutual terms on how to move forward. Mutual as in, I dictate what I am unwilling to accept and she either accepts or choses to end our relationship.

    • All BDSM and non platonic relationships outside of ours are ended.
    • New ones can only begin with my express consent, which I will not give before I feel 100% certain about my own sexuality and comfortable with the prospect.
    • She starts reading up on the material and starts to get information independant from him and forms her own understanding of BDSM.
    • She is allowed to maintain a platonic friendship with her coworker, but is to confine it to the workplace until I have talked to him. If this talk goes badly, the friendship either ends or our relationship does.

    We continued to talk after this, played the blame game for a bit but eventually reached fertile ground where she started to tell me her feelings beyond what she wants at the moment and criticaly evaluated her behaviour. Similarly, I told her my feelings, why I was hurt and that the above was the absolute limit of what I am able to do right now and for a good time in the future. I further told her that I want to see the developements of her coming out and my own reveleations about my sexuality as a chance and that I truly believe that we can become stronger and closer for it than we ever were. She reiterated that she was unwilling to risk our relationship and we both agreed to work together to make it work. We eventually went to sleep but continued to talk through the night and eventually reached a point where we could banter and laugh together freely for the first time in what feels like an eternity.

    Normaly, I would agree, but there are some things that need doing:
    • I need to confront him on the orders Issue. My speech lay the groundwork, but it may be flawed or he may have worded smarter than me. If he never gave her such an order, he will have no trouble revoking any and all previous orders to her in front of the both of us and if he did, his refusal will tell me what I need to know.
    • I must consider the possibility that my preconceptions, lack of understanding and emotionality have let to me being unfair. This does not excuse his actions, but may have, in part, made the whole thing worse than it needed to be.
    • I have, due to work and stress, made the mistake of not listening to my fiancé properly when she tried to tell me about him before her coming out. I realize that now and this makes me partially responsible for what has happened.
    • The two of them are coworkers and this is not going to change. Furthermore, she sees a soulmate in him and I really do not want (and doubt I can) take that away from her. In order to give her a fair chance, I have to try and make it work.
    • I found out that he is a lot younger than I thought and cannot help but feel that he may simply be inexperienced and socialy klumsy as opposed to calculating and vicious. If I am right, he deserves a second chance.
    • If he is in an uncaring asshole I feel that I need to make him see, understand and accept his responsibilities in the whole story, lest he can discard me and the events as a stupid, misinformed idiot and move on to harm the next relationship he comes across, because I failed to make him see that he is the problem.
    Yesterday night was the first time I felt like my fiancé and me were making real progress and this is to no small part due to the information and advice from you guys. For that, I once again wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart. :)
     
  13. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    Glad we could help, P.S. Communication is the foundation for successful BDSM, and it sounds like you're laying a good foundation. I think the stuff you've said to her is a really good beginning.

    Learning to be a dom takes practice. You need to develop your confidence in your ability to be in control, so focus on that. Work on developing a few core skills, such as effective tit torture, or basic rope work, so that you can feel confident about some basic issues, and then gradually explore other forms of play.

    You probably don't want to jump in 24/7 right away. That takes a sense of confidence. So work up to that gradually. Track down a couple of the books in the FAQ and do some reading.

    Telling her that you don't want her being friends with this co-worker is an entirely reasonable thing, given how things started. Doms have the right to veto the friends a slave have, especially in a situation that could interfere with both your power exchange and your basic relationship.

    Good luck with it all, and stay around the forum. We'd love to hear how things go.
     
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  14. P.S.Eudonym

    P.S.Eudonym Member

    Thank you. I will take the time to read some more and work on my skillset. We spend the evening last night talking about soft and hard limits, discussing our ideas of the whole thing, setting up safety precautions and the like. We also talked about past events in our relationship and how they relate to BDSM and it seems we have been at it for quite a while on a subconcious level without realizing it.
    As it turns out, she seems to care about pain play & bondage a lot more than dominance. Humiliation play doesn't appeal to either of us, so we won't worry about that. Since master/slave play turns her off (particularly the terms), we decided to focus on bondage play and no tools for a while and see where it takes us.
    We explored pain thresholds a little, employing the ample system to figure out what we like and what goes beyond our desires and it feels like a good starting point to build a foundation.

    24/7 is out of the question for both of us, I know the speech might have suggested it, but we have talked about it and concluded that neither one of us is interested in that. Above all, we have decided together that we want and need to take it slow and ease into it gradually.

    I had another semi accidental run in with her coworker when I picked her up from work and we agreed on meeting for a talk in the future. Despite my reluctance, I found that it was a lot easier to face him than I had thought and actually looking him in the eye I found that subjectively he seems much less of a threat and much less of a villain than before. For what its worth, I had no desire to beat him up but rather felt he needs some guideance and boundaries instead.
    There are still things that need talking over with both of them and it will require a firm and decisive stance, but I am now confident that both I and my relationship are able to take it. I guess being confronted with my own sexuality played a much bigger role than I was willing to admit originally.

    I do plan to stick around, aside from valuing the feedback you guys have to offer, I kind of like it here. ;)
     
  15. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    It's possible that this other dom is simply inexperienced and unread, and is just floundering around in his own fantasies, unsure of how to take things further or meet a sub to play with. That doesn't mean he's not an asshole--he decided it was appropriate to play with another man's fiance. As you develop your confidence in your dominance, he's gonna seem less and less of a threat.
     
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