the future of a Female Domination?

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It's worth keeping in mind that 20th century feminism emphasized two basic principles: the legal and social equality of men and women and the notion that women had the right to make choices about how they lived their lives. Feminism (with the exception of some radical feminists, especially lesbian separatists) never asserted that women had to be in charge of their households or that they could not submit to men or live in 'traditional' marriages. Rather it said that women had the right to make the same sorts of choices that men did. Feminists believe that women should be free to make choices about submitting to their husbands, being equal partners with their husbands, or dominating their husbands. As Hope points out, prior to the emergence of feminism, women were if not oppressed, certainly relegated to second class status. Pre-feminist women could not own property if they were married (and surrendered control over any premarital property to their husbands), could not vote, received minimal education, could work only a very limited range of jobs, could not divorce their husbands, and had few legal protections from parental or spousal abuse. I think even those of us who want a female slave can acknowledge that feminism has been extremely good for women.

And as my post state, equal rights on all front except the sexual one is a good thing in my opinion. But I think it becomes an entirely different matter when we start changing our sexual roles. Sure, some men likes to be dominated, but by far the largest portion of men have been brainwashed of images with 'masculine' men, someone who has the control. When this illusion is broken it can hinder men's sexual confidence. As I already stated this is not a sure fact, but merely theories.

EDIT: An additional problem statement.
In our society women are being favoured over men, the funny thing is that this is not something which takes as much space in the public compared to how much publicity women rights gets. (e.g. daycare)
(not to mention the stereotypical views which follow such a position if you are a man, the few paedophilia cases around the world leads to discrimination towards males who work in these positions, this is also seen in the police where men are not allowed to do body searches on arrested women because surely they must be using that opportunity for sexual harassment.)
In Denmark men are being drafted into the military against their will, but women are being given the choice between going or not.
Some corporations are FORCED to choose a woman over a man even though she does not show the same skills, simply because of being politically correct. (avoiding accusations of favouritism - this is mostly seen when the corporation consist of very few women and are forced to change the balance of gender)
 
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sebastian

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I'm sorry, MIT, but I have to politely say that this is nonsense. If male 'sexual confidence' is so fragile that it needs to be constantly propped up with images of male dominance of women, then men are not 'naturally' dominant, but only culturally so, in which case there's no real grounds for claiming that women ought to be sexually submissive to men. Additionally, given the enormous numbers of submissive men out there (in the gay community, the majority of men interested in d/s play are submissive, not dominant; virtually all professional hetero dominants are women, indicating an enormous market of men who crave domination and the near complete non-existence of a parallel market of submissive women), I challenge your claim that the majority of the male population craves a dominant role.

Furthermore, in saying that women ought not to have an equal role sexually, you've essentially asserted that women ought not to have a choice to be equal or dominant partners in their relationships. In essence, you're saying that no woman has a right to be dominant unless her partner explicitly craves submission, in which case her sexuality is being determined by the man anyway. Leaving aside the considerable sexism of such a claim, how do you propose to orchestrate a situation in which women are permitted to be economically and legally equal, but required to be sexually submissive?

Additionally, your claims that our society systematically favors women over men are simply false. Only 17% of Congress is female (the same percentage in both houses, actually), and only 12% of state governors are female. (This means that the government is overwhelming male-dominated, so why would it decide to cater to the interests of women rather than men?) Only 2% of Fortune 500 CEOs and 2.5% of Fortune 1000 CEOS are women, despite women making up more than 50% of the national workforce. Women workers make only 78% of what comparably-trained men in the same position make. Choosing to have children still has a devastating effect on a woman's lifetime earning potential. Studies have shown that women with children are hired at lower rates, given lower positions and paid less than men with children; a man whose resume includes references to parenting (being a member of the PTA, for example) is often considered a good father and ideal employee, whereas a woman whose resume includes such references is often considered a poor worker and an employment risk. Social Security still bases a woman's benefits on her economic productivity and does not take years off for parenting into consideration, with the result that she will have less income in retirement. In all ethnic categories, women are more likely to be poor than men. Divorce still plunges women into poverty at much higher rates than men. And until you can provide some hard evidence of corporations being required to choose less skilled women over men, I will not believe that claim--no law has ever been passed mandating such a thing. If a corporation chooses to advance a woman over a man for public relations purposes, that is a strategic choice that it may make. But given that women are routinely passed over in hiring, promotion, and pay increase decisions, the fact that an occasional woman is promoted over a man means nothing. The fact that men are not respected when they choose to work in day-care positions owes nothing to hostility to men; it is due to the fact that daycare work is considered women's work and therefore beneath men.

I continue to maintain that feminism has done vastly more benefit for women than it has harmed men. Women have not obtained anything like equality with men in this or any other country. Women have every right to be sexually dominant or submissive as they desire, just as men do. If a woman craves a 'traditional' marriage in which her husband wields the majority of power, that's great. But don't claim that woman have to accept such a relationship when they neither want nor are tempermentally suited for it.
 
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WmaGuy

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I'm sorry, MIT, but I have to politely say that this is nonsense. If male 'sexual confidence' is so fragile that it needs to be constantly propped up with images of male dominance of women, then men are not 'naturally' dominant, but only culturally so, in which case there's no real grounds for claiming that women ought to be sexually submissive to men. Additionally, given the enormous numbers of submissive men out there (in the gay community, the majority of men interested in d/s play are submissive, not dominant; virtually all professional hetero dominants are women, indicating an enormous market of men who crave domination and the near complete non-existence of a parallel market of submissive women), I challenge your claim that the majority of the male population craves a dominant role.

Furthermore, in saying that women ought not to have an equal role sexually, you've essentially asserted that women ought not to have a choice to be equal or dominant partners in their relationships. In essence, you're saying that no woman has a right to be dominant unless her partner explicitly craves submission, in which case her sexuality is being determined by the man anyway. Leaving aside the considerable sexism of such a claim, how do you propose to orchestrate a situation in which women are permitted to be economically and legally equal, but required to be sexually submissive?

Additionally, your claims that our society systematically favors women over men are simply false. Only 17% of Congress is female (the same percentage in both houses, actually), and only 12% of state governors are female. (This means that the government is overwhelming male-dominated, so why would it decide to cater to the interests of women rather than men?) Only 2% of Fortune 500 CEOs and 2.5% of Fortune 1000 CEOS are women, despite women making up more than 50% of the national workforce. Women workers make only 78% of what comparably-trained men in the same position make. Choosing to have children still has a devastating effect on a woman's lifetime earning potential. Studies have shown that women with children are hired at lower rates, given lower positions and paid less than men with children; a man whose resume includes references to parenting (being a member of the PTA, for example) is often considered a good father and ideal employee, whereas a woman whose resume includes such references is often considered a poor worker and an employment risk. Social Security still bases a woman's benefits on her economic productivity and does not take years off for parenting into consideration, with the result that she will have less income in retirement. In all ethnic categories, women are more likely to be poor than men. Divorce still plunges women into poverty at much higher rates than men. And until you can provide some hard evidence of corporations being required to choose less skilled women over men, I will not believe that claim--no law has ever been passed mandating such a thing. If a corporation chooses to advance a woman over a man for public relations purposes, that is a strategic choice that it may make. But given that women are routinely passed over in hiring, promotion, and pay increase decisions, the fact that an occasional woman is promoted over a man means nothing. The fact that men are not respected when they choose to work in day-care positions owes nothing to hostility to men; it is due to the fact that daycare work is considered women's work and therefore beneath men.

I continue to maintain that feminism has done vastly more benefit for women than it has harmed men. Women have not obtained anything like equality with men in this or any other country. Women have every right to be sexually dominant or submissive as they desire, just as men do. If a woman craves a 'traditional' marriage in which her husband wields the majority of power, that's great. But don't claim that woman have to accept such a relationship when they neither want nor are tempermentally suited for it.

I try to avoid "internet cliches' - they burn into my skull like a hot knife sometimes. However, in this case, there's one in particular that fits:

This.


Sebastian saved me a lot of time on the keyboard, (I'm an excessively slow keyboard commando - failed typing). Thanks man - it's added another 20-30 minutes to my life... ;)

At 44, I'd like to say that I've at least been half way around the block. I grew up in the mid 60's to early 80's in a very traditional, (at first) household. My father was the breadwinner - my mother the housewife/homemaker/babymaker - textbook Catholic family. It remained that way until well into the 1970's when my mother decided to evolve bad move for the marriage - good move for mom. What I learned from her is 'balance'. I have a good sense of tradition and do indeed believe that some of the traditional roles people play in a relationship can still be in place and in fact, can lead to a successful family. However, in my book, this only works in an equal partnership with someone of the same mindset.... I don't want to reverse the clock and even if I were to enter a 24/7 TPE, it could and would be done out of a sense of equal desire and not one born of traditional male entitlement....
 
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...What I learned from her is 'balance'. I have a good sense of tradition and do indeed believe that some of the traditional roles people play in a relationship can still be in place and in fact, can lead to a successful family. However, in my book, this only works in an equal partnership with someone of the same mindset....

I fully agree! Yes, the sexes are equal. But, we most definitely have different roles to play and different things to contribute. This is not to say that either is more valuable than the other though. It's kinda like D/s. It works when there is a pair that compliment each other perfectly.
 
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sillylittlepet

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what the fuck is this thread even about anymore? (woo lets enter the fray!)
whether men or women are the dominant gender in society?
Its cute that everyone in this debate is male (well... except MLML. and a bunch of posters from early on)

You male dominance people, get ooover yourselves! I'm a submissive girl, but only because thats how I like to get my kicks. I dont let anyone push me around outside of my D/s relationship, where I've specifically asked to be pushed around.
See there's this thing called "equality", where everyone is on the same level in status and opportunities and rights! Equality, in all aspects of society and for everyone, is not going to destroy the american family or jeopardize our current way of way or release the kraken or anything outrageous. There's this other thing called "change" and obviously some people just cant handle it because they believe so strongly in the dominant hegemonic way of living.
Gender roles are not biological, they're societal. Change the society, change the roles (or vice versa?!).
Man I dont even want women to be the "dominant gender", having a dominant gender seems silly to me. Maybe it was a good idea when we were living in a jungle, but see we've done that thing called CHANGE and then carried all this fucking baggage around with us. "Traditional values" my ass. Let them go already! Isnt this the 21st century?
 
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what the fuck is this thread even about anymore? (woo lets enter the fray!)
whether men or women are the dominant gender in society?
Its cute that everyone in this debate is male (well... except MLML. and a bunch of posters from early on)

You male dominance people, get ooover yourselves! I'm a submissive girl, but only because thats how I like to get my kicks. I dont let anyone push me around outside of my D/s relationship, where I've specifically asked to be pushed around.
See there's this thing called "equality", where everyone is on the same level in status and opportunities and rights! Equality, in all aspects of society and for everyone, is not going to destroy the american family or jeopardize our current way of way or release the kraken or anything outrageous. There's this other thing called "change" and obviously some people just cant handle it because they believe so strongly in the dominant hegemonic way of living.
Gender roles are not biological, they're societal. Change the society, change the roles (or vice versa?!).
Man I dont even want women to be the "dominant gender", having a dominant gender seems silly to me. Maybe it was a good idea when we were living in a jungle, but see we've done that thing called CHANGE and then carried all this fucking baggage around with us. "Traditional values" my ass. Let them go already! Isnt this the 21st century?

Haha yeah the thread is kinda off, I guess that is my fault. :p

Anyway, yeah, gender roles are a product of our society, and as such can and will be changed. =) I guess there is no reason that women shouldn't be on top. :eek:
 
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