Slave rights

Discussion in 'General BDSM discussions' started by ronin, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. ronin

    ronin New Member

    Good morning everybody,

    I'm an Italian Dom, living in Italy, who until not long ago used to be in a 24/7 M/f relatioship with a foreign girl.
    Since we loved each other, we used to think that anything would be better done together. Unfortunately, she was often off-and-on due to frequent travels to her homeland.
    Since in my sparetime I deal with photographers and model agencies, sometime it happens that some girl comes over seeking for a job.
    Such a case happened during her absence. I fully informed my slave well in advance, as soon as I knew it. For a number of reasons, it was not possible to change travel dates of either one of them, so the second girl would have arrived a week before my slave.
    Sex was involved of course.
    My slavegirl openly disagreed with that, she didn't like it - in a nutshell, she succumbed her jealousy (that's my opinion, of course).
    I tried to talk her over, explaining that it was not a permanent situation, 3 weeks max of which only 2 together. No way she would listen to me, she was firmly against it.
    To cut a long story short, it ended up in a mess and we split up - meanwhile, the photomodel has already gone away.
    Now, my slavegirl wants to come back, but she does not accept a threesome relationship, not even attempt it for a limited time just in order to see how it works.

    Now, a few facts:
    - I'm a light master, I don't inflict too much pain or humiliate her too much - actually I'm more biased toward submission than pain
    - we played SSC
    - she, by her own will, tattooed my name on herself as her master along with her Slave Registration Number - I strongly advised her to think well it over before committing to such an extent, because it's kinda marriage
    - she openly weared a collar, although not a locked one, in front of our friends and at times loved to sleep on the floor or doing other "fetish" things - ehm, I think you imagine what I mean :)
    - since she comes from a poor country, I helped her in any possible way; I ain't rich, so financially supporting her meant giving up something else for myself. But it's not only about money: it's about building a life together: sharing friends, interests, projects, health and so on. I did it gladly because I believe a master must care for his slave at least as he does for his Harley - 'nuf said :)
    - since she was living with me in a foreign country, not speaking native language, she helped me very little - you know, hosekeeping and so on. That's normal, it would be the same for me shoud I ever go to another country

    So, I was completely caught off-guard by her refusal, for the following reasons:
    - I believe a slave who goes as far as tattooing her SRN and owner's name, should be ready to accomplish her master desire - in this case nothing humiliating or painful, just living threesome. She easily submitted to mush more humiliating and at times extreme desires.
    - if any master's desire, for any reason, looks too heavy for her, in my opinion she has three options left: say "YES", say "I AIN'T READY FOR IT YET, BUT WILL STRUGGLE WITH PLEASURE IN ORDER TO SATISFY MY MASTER" or "THAT'S WAY TOO MUCH, I QUIT". I don't see acceptable answers "NO" or "I'll take it as long as I can" just as you think when you go to the dentist: "ok, it's gonna hurt, let's make it over as quickly as possible". In my eyes, this is not the right attitude for a slave.
    - I expected her to embrace open-armed the chance to finally doing something really really important for her master. After all, I can cook and had a housekeeper, sho she could do something unique for me.
    - I started to think that our relationship was not so different from more vanilla ones: after all, she only accepted what gave pleasure to her and in case it didn't, no matter master's feeling about it, she refused

    If you read so far, thank you :)

    Now, I wonder: am I wrong? Was it my mistake? Or did she misunderstood a slave's role and behaviour?
    Should I accept her refusal on a very important matter to me, or should I keep my ground about the only acceptable answers from a slave?

    I hope you can comment on this in an helpful way.
    Sorry if I upset someone, I didn't mean it, consider that I'm spaking in a foreign language so I may as well have used wrong terms.

    Thanks in advance to everybody

    If you want to e-me, write to



    PS: yes, I did my homeworks by searching "slave rights" but found way too much posts and the ones I read where not applicable to my case. Maybe I overlooked some relevant post
  2. Anubit

    Anubit New Member

    I would personally say you maybe are expecting a little too much, might just be me.

    To even expect that a girlfriend/wife/whatever would be willing to have her husband/boyfriend/whatever have another woman in his life, as a slave he could do "anything" sounds more or less impossible to me, I don't say it is, I just think it woudl be hard to find. That it's the slave that denies it surprises me a little though.

    I won't tell you how to act in your bdsm relationship, but you have to keep in mind that your slave still is a person. She is able to walk away at any time. And well.. It's different from relationship to relationship how far the slave/Owner is willing to go. I don't know how far you have taken yours, if you even have considered it. But it surely sounds like it's something she isn't comfortable with. She might be jealus, fear that you will lose interest in her, or just don't want you to be with others than her.

    No matter what it is something you have to discuss with her. Even though she "just" is a slave, does she still have rights. To say no, to express her feelings.
    I would personally say that the best thing you can do for both of you is to talk with her. Figure out what both of you are expecting, optionally see if there's any way you could make her accept it by doing something for her.

    The problem is at times that some Owners (I don't say you necessarily are one of those) see a slave as an object, maybe even a toy you just can toss around with and do whatever you want with. It might be that way with a very few. But slaves are still humans. They have feelings, needs and opinions. They still need to be listened to.

    Goodluck further ahead

    - Anubit
  3. ronin

    ronin New Member

    Tnx 4 the answer.
    I fully agree with you, but for the fact the tattooing the SRN number puts oneselve in a very submissive position. Moreover, I never denied her going away. She wanna go? Please be "someone else's" guest. What I do not understand is the desire from a slave of STAYING into a relationship and dictate conditions to her Master. This is unsound to me.
  4. MrWolfgang

    MrWolfgang Member opinion is, slave or not, shes a person. A person that dont want you fuckin other people. Simple as that. I understand that she has submitted to more extreme and humiliating stuff than what your asking for but, that extreme stuff was shared between you and her. Sounds like shes got a hard limit and you are trying sell or force something on her she obviously has no interest in. So me personally, I would either respect her wishes and drop it, try again sometime in the future, or move on if its that important it to you. Best thing you can do is keep that open line of communication. Im not real sharp on that whole Master/slave deal either tho so, take my opinion with a grain of salt.
  5. storm

    storm Guest

    I am sorry i ca only agree with the above comment, i think you have pushed her too far, she is still a person. not to mention as much as she is now your slave. it was her who trusted you enough to give herself to you. as much as it might never get mentioned as much as hard limits etc, i guess all subs/slaves would never expect there master to do this, unless sharing had been mentioned. hence its not set as a rule. she will be shocked, and hurt.
  6. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    Ronin, welcome to the site. Sorry it was under unpleasant circumstances.

    BDSM slavery is, by its nature, consensual. The slave submits only as long as she gains pleasure from doing so. So she was in her rights to withdraw her obedience. And she's within her rights now to say that she will return to you but she will limit her submission to you being monogamous with her. Any sub has the right to set limits and expect the dom to stay within those limits. Of course, a dom has a right to say that those limits are not acceptable, and thus he won't receive the slave's submission.

    With that in mind, let's talk about what happened. I think the problem here is that you two never really defined what you expected as master and slave, and as a result, you discovered unexpectedly that you two had different ideas of what the relationship was about. You thought you had total control, and that her submission was essentially unconditional, while she thought that there was a monogamy clause in place even though you two had never established such a thing. Thus, when the new girl was brought into the mix, she felt you were violating the arrangement, and you thought she was violating the arrangement when she balked. You were both wrong, because you were both right. Since you hadn't agreed on exactly what terms her submission took, you left a blind spot to stumble into.

    Now let's talk about your current situation. You and she need to sit down and have a serious talk about what you both want. You want a slave who does not have exclusive claims on you, and she wants a master on whom she has an exclusive claim. Neither of these positions is wrong; you are entitled to demand the right to play with other girls, and she's entitled to not submit unless you agree to be monogamous. Because you are equal until she submits, and because you two are free to define slavery as you see fit (because there is no Supreme Court of Kink which can overrule and invalidate either position), you two need to negotiate the ground rules more clearly. A contract might help with this, because it would establish in writing what the rules and limits of the relationship are.

    So you need to decide how important it is for you to have freedom to play with other girls, and she needs to decide how important it is for her to have a monogamous master. There are three options. 1) One of you gives in and accept's the other's terms. 2) You decide that what you want is incompatible and you go your separate ways. 3) You find a compromise of some sort. Perhaps she will agree that you can have a second girl, but only when she's not around; perhaps she'll agree to be the alpha slave, with rights over the beta girl. Perhaps she'll agree to having a threesome once the trust has been rebuilt and then you two will discuss if she can accept something like that periodically. But only you and she can decide what being slave and master mean to the two of you. Is a slave someone who surrenders control totally, or does a slave have some limited rights? It's for the two of you to figure out.
  7. ronin

    ronin New Member

    Thanks all for your comments.
    Well, I don't question the slave's right to assert her (his) will.
    And if her will is not compatible with Master's desire, she has always the option to quit.
    This I fully accept.
    But I don't accept a slave who refuse something even in principle, aven trying it - and, while doing this, wants to stay a slave. By refusing Master wishes, she asserted her legitimate self will and therefore, in my view, she is no longer a slave but a free person.
    Which is perfectly fine for me.
    But I can't conceive a part-time slave who "tops-from-below" by picking up which one of master's desires she agrees to fulfill. This IMHO is incompatible with the slave role.
    Unless, of course, it's seen as a small part of one's life, which is not our case: we were in a full 24/7 relationship.
    And about BDSM information and my desires, I talked with her about it, long time, sent her loads of info from the net: actually, she herself chose the tattoos by looking at all the info I sent her. So I'm a bit doubtful about the fact that she was not informed.
  8. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    Yes, once she agrees to submit, she surrenders her right to top from below. But remember, slavery is an abstract ideal, and you and she are real people. What works perfectly in theory and fantasy may not work well in practice. So you need to decide how important the abstract principle is and how important your relationship with this particular slave is. If you choose to accept her back, my advice is work out a contract that specifies what she can and cannot do, and what you agree to not demand from her, and then use that as the framework for your power exchange.
  9. AriBee

    AriBee New Member

    You may have sent her a lot of information and you may have talked to her about it, however it does appear to me that there was a lack of communication on the limits aspect of your relationship. You can send her all the information on the internet, however that is not going to properly inform her of what exactly you want from her and what exactly she wants from you.

    She may have seen something about a master owning multiple slaves on the internet but thought/hoped that you would never want that, so she didn't bother to bring it up.

    As everyone else has said, she is a human being, she has her wants and desires and she does what she does because she gains pleasure from it, if she didn't gain some form of pleasure from obeying you and making you happy she wouldn't be doing it. She is absolutely entitled to her limits and if they are not compatible with what you want from her then she is clearly not the slave for you.

    "But I don't accept a slave who refuse something even in principle, aven trying it - and, while doing this, wants to stay a slave. By refusing Master wishes, she asserted her legitimate self will and therefore, in my view, she is no longer a slave but a free person." This statement kind of bothers me and I've had a hard time trying to figure out how to respond. It makes me think that what you are looking for is a woman with absolutely no limits and I am fairly certain that these women are incredibly rare, if they exist at all (although technically I guess this would be a true "slave", but I'm sure those are very rare).

    But it does seem like that there may have been a lack of communication in this situation (not a lack of information but a lack of communication). If you are not willing to be respectful of your slave's limits then make sure to communicate that you are looking for a slave with no limits and make sure that the slave understands this 100%.

    I have a question for you, did you ever directly talk about the possibility of owning more than one slave, or even playing with other women? If this was never discussed you can't blame her for being surprised. Unless this was previously discussed and she agreed to it then I don't really think it was that wrong of her to decide that it was not something she was willing to do and hope that you would understand and continue to keep her as a slave.
  10. ronin

    ronin New Member

    Thnaks again for your interest in my case.
    Yes, we had long discussions about threesome plays and relationships. Actually, we used to attend swingers clubs, where I go mainly for pleasant and relaxing the atmosphere rather than for the sex in itself, which I prefer by far practicing at home. Actually, she had more sex than me at those places :)
    About a "poliamory" lifestyle, she expressed her negative point of view, but admitted that everything (except of course health-hazards) has to be tryed at least once.
    So, this specific case didn't come out of the blue, and was presented as a testbed.
    The word "slave" has a very specific meaning on the vocabulary, and I use it accordingly; probably in the BDSM arena it has a different meaning... but from my standpoint a slave who puts conditions is more similar to a housemaid, like "I'll clean the kitchen but not the toilet".
    By telling that slaves can either accept or make a real effort to get to accept their master's wishes, I of course I think of a master who takes care of his/her slave and do not expose him/her to any hazard. Should the master behave like this, or should the slave refuse to (try to) fulfill master's wishesh, she must/can quit. In the former case master is probably a psycho, in the latter one slave reasserts her freedom.
    If further limits can be estabilished within the boundary of "safe and sane", then maybe we should talk about master/housemaid relationship? :)
  11. ronin

    ronin New Member

    I've been combing Wikipedia, and it looks like that "slave", differently from "submissive" of other therms, within the BDSM community refers to TPE (or APE as other call it).
    Probably our communication was weak on this part, as there are other, lighter, forms of submission that do no stretch that far as TPE. She's probably into one of them, whereas I'm fully into TPE.
    This point has to be well talked over: any good brand of whip to suggest? :)
  12. AriBee

    AriBee New Member

    I'm sorry if I seemed rude, I've been a bit grumpy today, so that may have come across in my earlier post ^^!

    This is just a thought I'd figure I share, I'm not sure if it will help you or if you've thought about it. (Hey, I may be playing the role of Captain Obvious over here, but it can't hurt to say ^^).

    If she said she would be willing to participate in a polyamorous relationship before and then she suddenly changed her mind, it's likely that her feelings towards you have changed. There's a fair chance that she really fell for you and really didn't like the thought of sharing you. Even if she loved you when she said she would do it, this is still a possibility.

    I'll give you my feelings as an example. I am currently in love with two men. My boyfriend, we shall call him M and my ex, we shall call him T. I love M less than I love T, the love is also a bit different. If M came to me and asked to have an open relationship with me, I would be willing to give it a shot (at least in theory, in practice I might not be so willing after trying it). On the other hand if T and I were to start dating again and T came to me and asked to be in an open relationship with me I would not be so willing to do it and I would almost certainly say no. Although, I would still be willing to participate in a threesome with him and another woman or another man, it would just be this idea of him being with another woman when I'm not around that would upset me.

    Actually, now that I think about it I guess it could also be that in theory it seemed alright to her, however in practice it didn't. Or that she didn't like you spending a week with the other girl alone. (Or another reason).

    I think a good idea would be to figure out exactly why she said no, maybe it's something that can be worked around. Then yes, it's likely a good idea to figure out any other potential limits and work on a 24/7 Dominant/submissive relationship. (Unless all you want her to be is a housemaid now and not anything sexual, I mean if you're going to be all picky about vocabulary :p)!

    All right I'm done with my random mumbling ^^!
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  13. ronin

    ronin New Member

    No rudeness perceived, don't worry :)
    She was against the poliamoy idea, but if favour of trying anything new in general.
    And this was the ideal case for a test: temporary situation, no other complication, no sentimental involvment with the other girl, a decent one I may add.... just living and making sex under one roof.

    You are right that she probably found a stumbling block in me being alone with the other girl for a week, but then again I made a clear point from the VERY BEGINNING (sorry for upcase) that I'm not jealous AT ALL (although I'm Italian... I've a sort of disease probably : ) and that I wanted no jealousy AT ALL again in my life. Better alone than with any jealous one.

    I was asked: what if it was the other way round? Your girl alone with another man for a few days? Since similar situations happened to me in the past, I can answer with enough confidence: no problem. I'm self confident enough, I trust my g/fs, I don't feel the need to control other people's life, I actually enjoy their happyness as long as it takes nothing away from me. In a nutshell, I judge my relationship by whe exchange in place with the partner, and not by the possible exchanges in place with my partner and other people. Hey, they may be good looking girls (she's bi) or pretty nice guys to drink a beer with. Also, I see some advantages: if sometime I don't feel like making sex, I can count on the other one to satisfy my g/f - or many other similar situation.

    Al the above was made very very clear to her, but she didn't see any positive side, only negative ones. Matter of fact, I see more positives than negatives even when there ae two men and a woman, but that's just my POV

  14. subarama30

    subarama30 Member

    I think it's the reality that she is probably struggling with, talking is one thing but once it is real in your face it can be hard to take. She could have stronger feeling for you now then she did when it was first brought up, her emotions mean she doesn't want to share you, possessiveness and jealousy in my opinion are only natural and I have always struggled to grasp the concept of being with more than one person at a time.

    I guess you have to appreciate that she doesn't see the world the way you see it, you don't get jealous, she does, you think she should just go along with your wishes to please you but she isn't happy with what you want.
  15. sebastian

    sebastian Active Member

    It's important to realize that polyamory is a fairly complex form of relationship. It's only for those who feel that they can handle the complex lines of communication, the jealousy, and the time management it involves. My guess is your slave was uncomfortable with it, but thought she could make a go of it, but when it happened, she realized she's not cut out for it. And instead of talking the issue through with you, she freaked out.

    Looking up definitions of 'slave' isn't very helpful for BDSM relationships, because BDSM slavery is not actual slavery. Actual slavery is involuntarily, coercive, immoral, and more or less illegal today. BDSM slavery is voluntarily, non-coercive, moral for those who wish it, and more or less legal but non-enforcible. The latter must be pleasurable for the slave, the former rarely was. So they are apples and oranges. It seems to me that you're rather stuck on a particular abstract definition of the word rather than focusing (as I think you should) on what you and she actually want to establish. All the dictionary definitions in the world won't help you figure things out if what she wants is different from what you want.

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