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sebastian

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Bunny, I don't know all the details of your situation--it sounds fairly complicated. So let me just make a general observation for you to think about.

BDSM by its nature gets into very deep areas emotionally. Subs confront feels of shame, humiliation, inadequacy, worthlessness, and so on. Even the most emotionally stable sub can run into these dark feelings, and for less emotionally healthy subs, BDSM can be extremely damaging to their emotional health and well-being. If you are dealing with serious issues of core self-worth (and if your therapist thinks you may be mildly Borderline, then you are), my advice would be to forego the BDSM for a while and concentrate on your deeper issues. This isn't to say that you cannot ever do BDSM, only that for you right now, it probably isn't healthy to be a sub.

Exploring BDSM when you have a serious issue is dangerous to your own emotional health, and it places a heavy burden on a dom, who after all is ultimately responsible for his sub's well-being. If I played with a sub that I knew had a deep emotional issue and my play somehow aggravated the sub's problems, I would be very upset. The last thing most doms want is to harm their subs.

What this means is that BDSM is not always safe. Some people aren't ready for it right now, and others won't ever be ready for it. While BDSM can be deeply rewarding emotionally, it's not worth the risks to your emotional health. Assuming the diagnosis of Borderline is right, BDSM may well be dangerous for you, since those with Borderline often attempt or commit suicide when their condition isn't addressed. (I'm not saying that's an issue for you--I don't know you well enough--but it's definitely a concern for some who suffer from it).

So my advice is that you concentrate on healing whatever emotional wounds you are struggling with right now, and put your interest in BDSM on the shelf at the moment. When things are better, and you're not in so much pain, then consider exploring it again. I realize that it might not be what you want to do right now, but honestly, BDSM is not always worth the pain.
 
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Bunny, I don't know all the details of your situation--it sounds fairly complicated. So let me just make a general observation for you to think about.

BDSM by its nature gets into very deep areas emotionally. Subs confront feels of shame, humiliation, inadequacy, worthlessness, and so on. Even the most emotionally stable sub can run into these dark feelings, and for less emotionally healthy subs, BDSM can be extremely damaging to their emotional health and well-being. If you are dealing with serious issues of core self-worth (and if your therapist thinks you may be mildly Borderline, then you are), my advice would be to forego the BDSM for a while and concentrate on your deeper issues. This isn't to say that you cannot ever do BDSM, only that for you right now, it probably isn't healthy to be a sub.

Exploring BDSM when you have a serious issue is dangerous to your own emotional health, and it places a heavy burden on a dom, who after all is ultimately responsible for his sub's well-being. If I played with a sub that I knew had a deep emotional issue and my play somehow aggravated the sub's problems, I would be very upset. The last thing most doms want is to harm their subs.

What this means is that BDSM is not always safe. Some people aren't ready for it right now, and others won't ever be ready for it. While BDSM can be deeply rewarding emotionally, it's not worth the risks to your emotional health. Assuming the diagnosis of Borderline is right, BDSM may well be dangerous for you, since those with Borderline often attempt or commit suicide when their condition isn't addressed. (I'm not saying that's an issue for you--I don't know you well enough--but it's definitely a concern for some who suffer from it).

So my advice is that you concentrate on healing whatever emotional wounds you are struggling with right now, and put your interest in BDSM on the shelf at the moment. When things are better, and you're not in so much pain, then consider exploring it again. I realize that it might not be what you want to do right now, but honestly, BDSM is not always worth the pain.

Very well said! No point in trying to run down the road, if you dont have the flats fixed first!
 
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Sebastian, I agree. I don't plan on exploring BDSM anymore, and even sex is the last thing on my mind... I remember playing with E gave me a sense of worthiness and acceptance, but I don't think that feeling would last past the play session with another Dom, if those feelings came at all. And I also realize now that I shouldn't be looking for those feelings in BDSM or sex. I should have had self-worth to begin with and I should feel accepted in any good relationship. I should be able to hang out with my best friend and feel accepted. But I don't, so I need to get that fixed.

I sent the email to E asking for 1-2 mos of space to work on myself. He replied, and what he said was neither comforting or hurtful... Well, it was a little comforting to the logical side of me and painful to the borderline side. (While I know he is a good person that wants the best for himself, us and even me it is hard to take even the most sincere and good-intentioned things for me- I keep on being pushed back to "If I was a good person that he loved, he'd never leave me!" which I know isn't true.)

I don't really have anywhere else to go to get advice except my 1x a week counseling appointments (which hopefully will change to 2x a week) and here... But ever since E has been pasting what I say on here to another forum, I don't feel safe. One member Googled the post and of course ended up right here. (Which is kind of hurting E's privacy, too, if they snoop around too long. Their opinions of my kink hurt pretty bad, so I hope they spare him.)

They've thus so far said this:
- He cannot trust that I've never done this before
- He cannot trust that I will never do this again
- Get checked for STDs
- I am not a sane person (which is true, but not the way they put it)
- Many Doms are psychos that would probably hurt me
- I could not have figured out I like what I do without someone else showing me or porn
- Most Doms are untrustworthy and are likely to hurt you
- Get out before hurts you again
- I'm blaming E for my infedelity
- I am some psycho sex addict
- You cannot trust anything I say
- Our friend, who was outraged by what they were saying and replied, is just me trying to defend myself
- I will do anything to get my "fix"
- A sane person does not find a Dom on Craigslist
- I would not have cheated if I really cared about the relationship

I tried talking about it and shifting their conversation to a more helpful area, but I ended up trying to defend myself- BAD IDEA!! So controlling this is not going to work for me. And it sucks that I know that someone is probably going to read this, so now I feel the need to defend myself more. So I keep backspacing what I'm typing to make sure I'm not defending myself, because I quit posting in that forum for a reason... Hearing people say I'm a bad person is scary, because I fear that I am. I need SOMEONE to protect me from that, so I end up protecting myself. Like one of them said- I was having a total fucking pity party. I want people to to say "Oh, sweetheart, it's alright. You're not a bad person." My counselor told me to knock that shit off, and she's right.

So I've just been reading what they say and what E says back. He doesn't get angry and say "Yeah, she's a bitch. I should dump her," but he says what he feels and what is true. It's almost therapeutic, because before I was never able to just stand by and let others tell my significant other to break up with me or talk poorly of me with him. Just the thought of it would make me go nuts. Now, here I am- sitting by and just listening while others affect his decision to stay with me, and it's a REAL threat that he is going to leave. Yes, I want to call him up right now and tell him all the reasons he shouldn't leave and how untrue everything they say is, but I'm not. I'm just letting whatever happens happen. And it's REALLY hard and painful, but it's also relieving. I don't need to panic and find away to stop it or control it or prevent the hurt- I can just sit here and hurt and not know what's going to happen.

Last night, something weird happened. I was thinking about how maybe to deal with this. I at first thought:

Be optimistic! You are working on yourself, he doesn't hate you, he's just hurt- you totally have a chance! Just take comfort in the years that you've shared and write in your book. This is a new beginning- if he decides to stay, you will be able to cuddle again, go do all of the things you've wanted to do with a new appreciation you have now for the relationship!

But even he said prepare for the worst, and so did my counselor and everyone else. It's true... I should prepare for the worst. So then I thought:

Okay, so he might break up with you. You're going to be okay with that. Yes, you love him and a huge chunk of your life will be missing for a while, but it's just a new chapter. And you will have the opportunity to fill that hole with anything you want. Single life? Maybe dating again? Mature dating is an experience you've never had... Of course, there's a whole other set of mental health issues that will come with dates coming and going and not being attached to one person, but that'ts what counseling is for! Plus, you have lost 10lbs in this whole process! It's OK if he leaves. You won't die, and in the future something good might replace what you've lost. You have so far found 2 good men that you can get close to without being hurt. The first wasn't a good match and this one you hurt too bad to fix the relationship. There will be more.

Then I thought that preparing for the worst by thinking about how my life might be good again without him isn't the best thing to do, either. First of all, I don't need to think about getting a new boyfriend, because knowing me I will jump the gun just in order to ease my pain. This is space not a break, and I don't want what happened last time to happen again. (I started getting close to E when my ex was breaking up with me- it was supposed to be temporary, but he ended up being good for me.) And I DO want to be with E more than find another person to be with.

So I just realized that there is no good way to prepare for this, other than to make the commitment to leave with dignity like Jett and many others said and like E requested. And that hurts. But the only way to get through this- whether it ends with E or without, is to just let it hurt. So then, broken and unable to sleep, I went to bed thinking about ways to ease the pain just a little so i could sleep at night and keep up with school/work and not fall behind.

I thought about things that would comfort me. I've been writing in this book I got called "What I Love About You." I saw it at Barnes and Noble before our 2nd anniversary and wanted to buy it but they were gone before I could. I found it and bought it before I told him the last detail that sent him over the edge... It was comforting before I forced myself to realize that although I might be able to make this work out, there's a good change he is going to be too hurt to want to make it work with me. So I'm still writing in it, but I need a new comfort.

I went to bed, snuggled with a bear he won for me and a blanket that reminds me of him (this isn't new- I usually sleep like this), and I remembered that a few nights ago he spent the night to talk. I was crying and he ended up asking me if I wanted to sleep on his chest. OH MY GOD THE BEST COMFORT I THINK I'VE FELT IN MY LIFE!! Now of course I won't have that and I might never be able to do it again... Which yields to yet more hurt and tears and so forth. I realized that physical comfort at night is one of the only ways I can sleep okay.

So, I brainstormed. First thought was that I know how NOT to get it- via male friends, because then that's a whole cornacopea of crap I don't need obviously. I'm too old to cuddle with my mom, and I think she's too old, too. Friends is just weird. My cat isn't very cuddly. Almost thought about trying to find someone that would borrow me their horse to cuddle with, but I can't sleep in a stall in the middle of winter, so that would not help me sleep.

But then I started talking to myself, and IDK how to explain it, but I realized that myself is there to talk to! I can also cuddle with myself and tell myself it's going to be okay and that I love myself. I had a weird experience like this after I had gotten out of being so depressed I was going to kill myself when I was 15. I wanted nothing but to love myself and be there for myself and take care of myself and keep myself OK. Being with E felt a lot like being with myself- I can talk to him about anything, I can trust him, I have no shame around him, I know he won't hurt me, I know he wants the best for me, etc. So I guess loving myself is a lot like loving him. And so for the rest of the night I just talked to myself, and rubbed my feet together and gave myself hugs. I know it sounds weird, but it really eases the terrible lonely feelings I felt. I really should have felt like this all along- I can't expect E to be the only person that loves me and makes me feel worth something. I should have done that for myself first, and he should have been the "extra" not been expected to maintain the bear minimum to keep me alive and happy.

So I'm still hurt, but now I guess I feel like there's someone in it with me. It's a lot easier to work on being healthy, repairing myself so I can *maybe* later help repair the relationship, cope with how I feel, etc. when I feel like there's someone else there for me:) And this has also made me realize some things about myself that I will share later. Going to the store now, because it snowed here and Mom's scared we won't be able to get groceries. LOL.
 
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Reading about relationships with women with borderline. Oh my god... This is OUR relationship. I want to say it's not true- I want to say that it's just a coincidence that he came along when I was in an emotional crisis. I REALLY want to say that he DID understand better than anyone else, and I know that's true... But maybe it is not? Maybe... Well, there's a lot of maybes. Some things aren't true for me (example: demonizing/idealizing), and some things I have already started to overcome- some are almost gone!

Now, I'm researching what it takes to stay in a relationship with a BP person. Hmmm... Assuming that none of these articles are talking about people with a mild form who are working on getting better. I do NOT want E to have to always remind me how much of a good person I am- I think I need to be able to do that myself.

I honestly don't want him to know a lot of this. He would probably feel really used and controlled and perhaps that I only love him because of a disorder. He would probably feel like there was never anything there- which isn't true. There was. It was wonderful. It was so great, that I realized how much I was hurting him and before I even knew there was something clinically wrong with me I willed myself to change a lot. I stopped making him the bad guy all the time. I forced myself to be OK with him liking things and being interested in things that have nothing to do with me. I worked on my anger. I tried to overcome the panic attacks I would have and negative feelings when he hung out with his friends. I did all of that to quit hurting him. And you know what? That's pretty amazing.

But does that mean this is for-sure going to work? No. It doesn't mean that he is the best person for me, either. I can see a few traits that he has that definitely enable me to do the terrible crap I do. If he can knock it off and not be scared to hurt me, this might work. If he can't, I think that there MIGHT be a chance, but I'm sure the temptation to be comfortably in control again will come back and I'll relapse. I don't think he wants to deal with that, and it's not good for me, either.

But on the flipside, fear is a motivator. I fear being abandoned, and I'm sure that fear will never completely go away. I also know he hates feeling controlled (kind of ironic but it's true). So if he knows more about emotional black mail and manipulative behavior, he will realize when I'm doing it and that might make him so upset he leaves or at least be upset enough to give me a good piece of his mind and scare the pants off of me. So fear would definitely motivate change.

Would I cheat again? That's the million dollar question for me right now. I want to say no. I know cheating will definitely be a scary thing to do now. I also know that I would feel way more guilty considering how hurt he was. But worst case scenario...

During the next session, I am going to ask my counselor to help me come up with some answers about this whole relationshp with a borderline woman thing. I'm definitely going to ask about cheating and ask her to help me come up with reasons why or if I am likely to want to do it again in the future. And I'm also going to try to come up with the answers to some really painful questions- did I stay with E because he enabled my disorder? I also want to ask if she has seen any relationships that started out with a partner with uncontolled borderline can be repaired after it is under control.

I am starting to think the answer is no. I didn't PLAN on manipulating him, but I did. I didn't plan on going out, finding a sweet guy that cares and using that against him, but I did. I didn't plan on using emotional black mail to get "our problems" fixed, but I did. I can't take any of that back. We can start over, but I suppose why would he want to start a relationship over and do work to make it healthy when he can start a new relationship that doesn't need any work. I would like to think that he would if he loved me enough, but that's not being realistic. Realistically, he wants to be happy whether he loves me or not.

But I will wait it out and see. Perhaps it will be worth it to him? Perhaps my willingness to go through all the painful realizations and learn to be okay with all of the things that scare me without using manipulation will be enough? Perhaps he will be willing enough to put out all this effort with me to make this into a strong, healthy relationship? I know that the day I can feel loved by someone I cannot control who insists on being their own person apart from me is going to be amazing. I want that person to be him, but only time can tell.

Going to maybe make a blog to post all of these feelings and discoveries, so I don't flood this thread. If I do I will post a link.
 
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rooluvr

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Oh, dear foreverbunny. My heart really does go out to you. As I self-indulgently posted before, I dated a man who suffered from BPD and it was very traumatic for the both of us.

I could type a lot of pop psychology mumbo jumbo of things I have learnt and experienced of this condition. You seem to be dancing the borderline dance. I could explain the mechanics of it, but I'm not sure if it would be entirely helpful.

I would like to start off by saying that you are not a diagnosis. Just because someone has put a label to a set of behaviours you exhibit does not give them the power to define you, you are your own person, you make your own path.

No matter what your brain chemistry, no other person can make you happy or make you whole. Happiness and wholeness is something you get for yourself. My advice is that you break it off with E and give yourself (and him) time to heal. He is unlikely to be the one, I am sorry.

I think it's very important to realise that BPD is all about messed up relationships.

There is hope though, it took 5 years but my ex is now happily in a relationship and seems to have kicked the condition. I believe you can too, but you will need to persist with therapy and you'll need to resolve the underlying issues that have caused the condition in the first place.

You can do it. You are intelligent and articulate and I suspect you understand what's going on inside your head, it's just very hard to fight against the emptiness.
 
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Oh, dear foreverbunny. My heart really does go out to you. As I self-indulgently posted before, I dated a man who suffered from BPD and it was very traumatic for the both of us.

I could type a lot of pop psychology mumbo jumbo of things I have learnt and experienced of this condition. You seem to be dancing the borderline dance. I could explain the mechanics of it, but I'm not sure if it would be entirely helpful.

I would like to start off by saying that you are not a diagnosis. Just because someone has put a label to a set of behaviours you exhibit does not give them the power to define you, you are your own person, you make your own path.

No matter what your brain chemistry, no other person can make you happy or make you whole. Happiness and wholeness is something you get for yourself. My advice is that you break it off with E and give yourself (and him) time to heal. He is unlikely to be the one, I am sorry.

I think it's very important to realise that BPD is all about messed up relationships.

There is hope though, it took 5 years but my ex is now happily in a relationship and seems to have kicked the condition. I believe you can too, but you will need to persist with therapy and you'll need to resolve the underlying issues that have caused the condition in the first place.

You can do it. You are intelligent and articulate and I suspect you understand what's going on inside your head, it's just very hard to fight against the emptiness.


Not the advice I want to hear, but I have heard that BPD often damages relationships beyond repair... I have realized after thinking long and hard about our relationship and my possible diagnosis and doing some research- I think he WANTS to be in a BPD relationship. We almost need eachother to be needed. He has had some insecurity issues in the past, and my intense interest in him during "honeymoons" and immediate affection when he makes me feel good are things I think that make him feel better. Of course, me never being satisfied and blaming him and manipulating him probably harm him a lot, too.

Honestly, I want to quit hurting him. I love him. I don't want him to leave, and I want to be selfish, but I know deep down it's not the right thing to do. I think if I can progress enough in therapy to knock off my destructive and manipulative behaviors and he can COMMIT to not letting himself be manipulated or hurt anymore, this will totally work- that is, if he can ever get over what I did to hurt him and if he wants to stay. So there's a lot of factors. Some are completely under my control- many are not. Either way, I'm committing myself to getting better for myself and for my loved ones. I'm sick of hurting people and feeling I need control to be loved.

It's a lot of factors...
 
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Aside from the self justification going on here, aren't you back tracking by concerning yourself over him again, when you were going to make the first right step in taking care of yourself, then approaching the relationship?

Concerning yourself again as to why he does or doesn't want the relationship, you, or anyone else should not be your priority right now.. Working independently on your issues first is where your concerns need be!

Cycling?
 
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rooluvr

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Needing to be needed can turn into a kind of codependency. A codependent relationship is not good for anyone, really. You're both young and will have many opportunities for relationships in the future. Let him go and you'll be back together later if it was meant to be. As the song says: the first cut is the deepest. Your first love takes a lot to get over. Appretiate the relationship for the good parts, understand the bad parts, learn and grow.

If you think about it you will understand that the emptiness is far too great for another person to fill. One person's love will never be enough to fill that void. I believe the answer is to understand the emptiness and to address it. Maybe when you're ready you can take him back, but I think that by the time you are ready you will be a different person and want different things.
 
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